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I have a problem..(Read 8294 times)
I have a problem.. on: September 20, 2009, 03:47:28 AM
I have regularly identified myself as an 'anarchist'. At least for the last ten years or so... I now feel like Im more of a Libertarian or a Minarchist (look that up, its a good one.). This bothers me tho. Humans, as imperfect beings, should not have the ability to rule over other imperfect beings. Period. Anarchism seems the solution. This is a basic truth... BUT NO. Big problem. A situation was brought to my attention, by me and by alcohol of course...
Say a neighbor, in an anarchist 'society', decides to take another person for physical pleasure or whatnot. A person unable to defend oneself. Say I witness such an intrusion, and using my moral judgement, and the weapon(s) at my disposal, prevent such an action. I have become the 'state'. I have used my imperfect judgment to rid another person of their human right to be a fucktard. I AM the government at that point. This bothers me. Perhaps Im drunk and ignorant. Perhaps Im just stupid, but this seems to be a paradox. Like I said, Ive relaxed somewhat over the years. Gotten soft. But I would still love to hold on to my adolescent views and all of their purity. It seems I cant. Again, this message was brought to you by wine and 211. The great revealer. BUT HOW DOES THIS GET SOLVED? I know theres some old school purists on this board. Tru? Someone? Help me with this. Minarchist seems to work, but my childhood philosophy is dying. Damnit.
I have an American dream, but mine involves Black Masks and Gasoline..



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #1 on: September 20, 2009, 03:51:32 AM
What would be recognized as rights in this anarchic society? Is every person an island unto themselves? Anarchy can be the absence of laws because we all behave ourselves and don't need to stoop to force people to behave toward their fellow human. Or it can be the absence of order, and we all rape, pillage, and plunder as we can afford ourselves the power to lord over others.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #2 on: September 20, 2009, 04:00:39 AM
Laws exist only in the minds of human beings. Anarchy is the natural state. From this anarchy, people have chosen, at best, "rule of law" as a means of maintaining justice. This is one of the glaring flaws of "anarchist" philosophy: What they seek to achieve already exists, and people have simply made their choice from amongst a myriad of possible means of deciding their behavior.


 The other flaw is that whenever political anarchy has been "achieved", or within reach (like say during the Spanish Civil War), the collectivists, be they socialist or communist, have had them shot once they outlived their usefulness. Political anarchy is vacuum, and nature abhors such things.
It's truly a shame I am no longer there to yell at girls to make out with you.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #3 on: September 20, 2009, 04:07:10 AM
So as I always suspected, its a wash. A paradox that cant work. Suck. So minarchy is the only human government that can hope to succeed. Thats nasty too, really. Again, imperfection cannot rule imperfection. At all. Argh. Very frustrating.
I have an American dream, but mine involves Black Masks and Gasoline..



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #4 on: September 20, 2009, 04:12:10 AM
Quote
Or it can be the absence of order, and we all rape, pillage, and plunder as we can afford ourselves the power to lord over others.

But that is not natural and doesn't produce the entire picture.
Reality; A shared narrative we all agree to believe.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #5 on: September 20, 2009, 04:14:40 AM
Its NOT natural... Thats whats frustrating. Monkeys dont do it. Why the hell do we... again... Argh! I dont understand.
I have an American dream, but mine involves Black Masks and Gasoline..



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #6 on: September 20, 2009, 04:24:41 AM
Actually, that is precisely what many species do. Dolphins will kill nursing young to open up mating opportunities with females, or simply outright rape a female. Male gorillas will kill and cannibalize young whose parentage they doubt. Chimpanzees have morals akin to those of Sadam's sons.
It's truly a shame I am no longer there to yell at girls to make out with you.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #7 on: September 20, 2009, 04:33:54 AM
Quote
Chimpanzees have morals akin to those of Sadam's sons.

And Reagan
Reality; A shared narrative we all agree to believe.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #8 on: September 20, 2009, 04:36:41 AM
 Look, Tru, just because you're a homophobe who gets all a-rile at the thought of homosexuals teaching in schools...
It's truly a shame I am no longer there to yell at girls to make out with you.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #9 on: September 20, 2009, 06:47:38 AM
I think I will wait till page two.
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Look dude, there's only one thing I like that starts with Hot Black Co- and it doesn't end in 'ffee'.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #10 on: September 20, 2009, 11:55:35 AM
ever tried. ever failed. no matter. try again. fail again. fail better.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #11 on: September 20, 2009, 06:49:57 PM
So it IS natural to rape pillage etc... Damned moral compass says no. But I guess not for everyone. Just because my moral compass tells me its wrong, that doesnt necessarily make it 'wrong' per se if it exists everywhere else in nature. That would make nature 'evil', and that seems rediculous. While I hold to a few 'moral absolutes', dont rape dont kill dont steal, they are, in fact, unnatural. So we assume a God or an evolutionary advantage, but we have nothing in the natural order to compare those to. Collectively we act the same as Wozzecks examples, just on a much larger scale. War and domination on a larger scale because of our 'gods and evolutionary advantages'.
I have an American dream, but mine involves Black Masks and Gasoline..



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #12 on: September 20, 2009, 07:07:41 PM
 Why do you assume "nature" is good? Why do you assume "nature" is anything but amoral? Right and wrong are concepts for intelligent beings capable of decision-making and imagination, not the mechanical processes of the universe and the adaptions of unintelligent life to its hardships.

 Has it ever occurred to you that a forest is nothing more than a vast battle field where plant life wages war amongst its own, the survivors being those who could strangle or starve the competition?
It's truly a shame I am no longer there to yell at girls to make out with you.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #13 on: September 20, 2009, 07:23:10 PM
You guys should really listen to Nostril-dumbass here. Totally sounds like he knows what he's talking about. Very charismatic.
No Nyarlathotep, no chaos...
KNOW NYARLATHOTEP, KNOW CHAOS!



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #14 on: September 20, 2009, 07:31:07 PM
What, you're going to tell me that Mother Gaea is a loving and motherly collective of love and lovingness, and that I have just now offended her sensibilities?

Do you still believe in the Tooth Fairy, too?

Or are you just being a prick for the sake of being a prick?
It's truly a shame I am no longer there to yell at girls to make out with you.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #15 on: September 20, 2009, 07:36:01 PM
I'd like to call for a lifeline on this question...


Sorry bout that. I don;t uually use a persons real name without permission or precedent but I got some flu dementia goin on,,
« Last Edit: September 20, 2009, 07:39:52 PM by Zoomie »
No Nyarlathotep, no chaos...
KNOW NYARLATHOTEP, KNOW CHAOS!



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #16 on: September 20, 2009, 08:56:39 PM
Of course I don't think of nature as good or evil. I just used the word 'evil' for the sake of argument. If we intentionally behave 'naturally', we are behaving often in a way that we tend to term 'evil'. Amoral is the best term for nature, like you said. But, to act 'naturally', and also be 'intelligent beings capable of decision-making and imagination', causes the paradox. We have those same natural impulses, but we try to temper them from some learned or inborn desire to categorize. 'Anarchy' is the only natural state, and perhaps it just needs to be taken with all of its ugliness. But natural selection is nasty business. We inherently don't like it. We are the only species I can think of that regularly supports and praises those that would not survive those physically or intellectually would not have gone on to breed otherwise, and therefor, by interrupting natural selection, we may 'devolve'. And theres another paradox. That tendency to protect and defend the defenseless, is something that helped get us to where we are. Allowed us TO evolve in the first place. Likewise, it could 'backfire' in the long run. Gar!... What was just a drunken post has turned into a full blown philosophical clusterfuck.
Oh, and I liked the forest battlefield analogy. Unfortunately, it makes me wonder if, for instance, bombing the hell out of Iraqis for oil, can ALSO be termed 'survival'.  Greed seems a 'natural' occurrence, and war for riches could be seen as survival of the State, at least by those calling the shots, making it just as acceptable in that light as trees blocking the sun from the undergrowth. I have to think about this more.
I have an American dream, but mine involves Black Masks and Gasoline..



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #17 on: September 20, 2009, 09:34:23 PM
The entire logical flaw of Anarchy can be summed up in just under 3 minutes.

SLC Punk!
Pour the wine, hold the grind, quarter to nine, let's go.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #18 on: September 20, 2009, 10:21:45 PM
  Why do you assume we "bombed the Iraqis" for oil?

  If we had wanted Iraqi oil, Sadam would have been happy to sell it to use for less than it costs us to get our own (since the state, essentially himself, owned the oil fields and he could force to people to work as cheaply as he wished and subsidized other operating costs through taxes) and use that money to continue encouraging Islamic terrorists and squirreling away nuclear materials. If we had wanted Iraqi oil, we also would have actually, I don't know, seized the damn oil fields or set up another dictator who could sell it to us on the cheap. Instead we gave Iraqis a chance at an elected government, and last I checked, it was the Poles and Koreans who held contracts working the fields for the Iraqi state. Hell, why even invade another country halfway around the world? We've got plenty of fallow oil fields in this country. If it was about oil, Bush could have just forced drilling restrictions to be lifted.

 Oil played a part in the Iraq campaign to the extant that one of Sadam's biggest wet dreams was to cut off shipping around the Gulf, which would have likely resulted in total chaos in Europe, which unlike the US truly is dependent on foreign oil. Just look at all the furor that occurred last winter over the Russians cutting off one pipeline through the Ukraine.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2009, 10:29:51 PM by Wozzeck »
It's truly a shame I am no longer there to yell at girls to make out with you.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #19 on: September 20, 2009, 10:28:37 PM
Quote
We are the only species I can think of that regularly supports and praises those that would not survive those physically or intellectually would not have gone on to breed otherwise, and therefor, by interrupting natural selection, we may 'devolve'. And theres another paradox. That tendency to protect and defend the defenseless, is something that helped get us to where we are. Allowed us TO evolve in the first place.

 We are not the only species which will support the crippled. This occurs in numerous social animals. We are the only species which can plan far ahead, as in years or decades down the road. Like in trying to turn tyrannical, dysfunctional states into representative, functional allies. See: Germany, Japan, Italy, Iraq.
It's truly a shame I am no longer there to yell at girls to make out with you.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #20 on: September 21, 2009, 12:20:27 AM
Its NOT natural... Thats whats frustrating. Monkeys dont do it. Why the hell do we... again... Argh! I dont understand.

Monkeys also don't build automobiles or telecom satellites. It's amazing what a society can accomplish when you don't have to spend all of your time keeping from being robed and raped.
Go to these sites, and don't forget to tell your friends!
KimboFever.com
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Re: I have a problem.. Reply #21 on: September 21, 2009, 12:39:39 AM
We've got plenty of fallow oil fields in this country. If it was about oil, Bush could have just forced drilling restrictions to be lifted.

It does make a certain amount of sense to burn through the rest of the world's oil reserves and try to leave what remains here as untouched as possible.  Oil has not reached its peak monetary or strategic value by a longshot.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #22 on: September 21, 2009, 01:36:00 AM
Quote
...and use that money to continue encouraging Islamic terrorists and squirreling away nuclear materials.

Yeah well, not a word of that is true. Go figure.
Reality; A shared narrative we all agree to believe.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #23 on: September 21, 2009, 01:57:26 AM


Some of his charitable contributions: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/14/world/main543981.shtml


Hey, who wants some fucking cake?



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25546334/

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/25/sprj.irq.centrifuge/

But hey, I'm sure Saddam had really, genuinely reformed his ways after the humiliating defeat of the Gulf War and held absolutely no grudges and would never ever ever ever have dreamed of restarting his nuclear weapons program as soon as someone sufficiently Carter-esque was at the helm of the US of A.


PS- I'm sure all those reported attempts to bribe and/or bully UN weapons inspectors were just crazy stories those guys made up to get laid.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 02:02:22 AM by Wozzeck »
It's truly a shame I am no longer there to yell at girls to make out with you.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #24 on: September 21, 2009, 02:16:27 AM
Sadam is one of a select few who can pull off a corduroy jacket.
Quote from: FB comment
Look dude, there's only one thing I like that starts with Hot Black Co- and it doesn't end in 'ffee'.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #25 on: September 21, 2009, 02:49:36 AM
It probably took like a thousand tries to get that look right. He had the other 999 artists shot.
It's truly a shame I am no longer there to yell at girls to make out with you.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #26 on: September 21, 2009, 02:51:46 AM
.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 12:44:43 PM by Tru »
Reality; A shared narrative we all agree to believe.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #27 on: September 21, 2009, 02:54:04 AM
 Yes, I know. That is not a secret to anyone.
It's truly a shame I am no longer there to yell at girls to make out with you.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #28 on: September 21, 2009, 09:37:18 AM
Actually, that is precisely what many species do. (3 examples)

Did you know that some species of duck will have homosexual necrophilic intercourse?  Must be natural for EVERY species to do that!

This is what is known as a "hasty generalization".
Like yours.  Only different.



Re: I have a problem.. Reply #29 on: September 21, 2009, 09:40:58 AM
I AM the government at that point. This bothers me. Perhaps Im drunk and ignorant. Perhaps Im just stupid, but this seems to be a paradox.

Do you then, at a later time, allow someone else to come along and stop you from what you think is a good idea?
Like yours.  Only different.