Y'all know I'm a Christian, but I keep having to wEnder about something Jesus said to us about His Father's house having Many Rooms, and Him going to prepare one for us.

Anyone that wants to know God, and tries to adhere to religion, as it's been presented to them, is just seeking God.  Nothing bad about that, imho.

I think that's a very fine way to look at it. I wish there were more that agreed with this view. I was raised Christian and I remember that one of the things that bothered me the most was that according to the Sunday School teachers it didn't matter how nice of a guy the Jewish or Hindu or Buddhist fellow you knew was. He had selected the wrong religion and would burn for it eternally. Even at this early formative age something about that just struck me as completely wrong and evil.

Have I got a story for YOU!

When I first became Christian?  I went to Church all the time, and Son-day school and all of the ladies studies, but it all happened at a time that I was taking care of a lady (Virginia) that had Alzeheimers.  It wasn't too long before I couldn't take her with me, and I had no relief to watch over her if I left.

I prayed and prayed for guidance, by which, I hoped for other Christian's to talk to about all the things I was reading.

Even though I was a member of TWO different Churches, no one could "work me in"to their busy schedules, not even for a once a week visitation.

I prayed about that, and He told me that I didn't need other people to tell me what He was saying to me,

I needed Him.

It isn't Church that helps you become righteous.  It isn't what other people think that makes you a Christian.

It's your relationship to Him, whether Him represents God, or Buddha, or Muhammad, or whoever.

NO ONE who actively seeks God will fail to recognize Him, when He speaks the truth to them.

imho 

Christianity teaches 100% involvement and commitment or you go to hell. Absolute surrender to the law of Christ. You madam, are an alcoholic and a drug addict. Do you follow a subset of the bible?

You should be Wendering about whether Jesus ever said anything at all since the christian religion is a total fabrication of Roman politicians.

I don't subscribe to that. Joshua Bar Joseph AKA Jesus of Nazareth is a historical figure. There'd have been no point for the Romans to fabricate such a thing.

I think the doubt is over whether or not he said he was the son of god.

Who cares if he said it?

Lots of other people have made similar claims.

The doubt is over whether it's true.

Christians? Maybe.

I don't see any reason to doubt it in this instance. It's not as the later (and thus presumably less accurate) gospels present him as divine while he earlier ones present him as just a good man. In fact it's the other way around.

I don't think Christians question whether Jesus called himself the Son of God. That's an article of faith for them.

Yeah, Christians would believe it outright. 

And it should be irrelevant to everyone else, unless they either want to paint Jesus as a nut or if they want to believe he was just a pretty good dude and not a messianic figure until painted that way later.

Whether its true or not is an issue for all religions. My point about whether he said it or not was because if he never said it then it wouldve been made up for political/whatever reasons.

Precisely.

something Jesus said to us about His Father's house having Many Rooms, and Him going to prepare one for us.

Just for reference, this is the line we are discussing. Are there actually any reasonable suspicions that this was made up by Jesus' detractors for political reasons?

The entire bible was edited by Constantine's cronies so anything in it is suspect.

That's actually one of those lines that I am surprised wasn't purged from the Bible when the first child molesters were purging everything that didn't support their version of the church.

Maybe they meant bedrooms.

That's actually one of those lines that I am surprised wasn't purged from the Bible when the first child molesters were purging everything that didn't support their version of the church.

I've often thought that Christian Fundamentalism would evaporate if there was proper coverage of the history of the formation of the bible in the primary school system. I'm against the mixing of church and state, but I'd be very happy to have kids learn about the history of religions. It's kind of an important topic in my view considering the impact of religion on modern life.

Christianity teaches 100% involvement and commitment or you go to hell. Absolute surrender to the law of Christ.

This is not necessarily true about modern Catholicism and to a lesser extent Episcopalian, Lutheranism and Protestantism.
This is likely true of many fundamental and pentecostal sects of Christianity, but I never claim to know anything about those.

I think that the history of religion would be interesting in school, but I worry about the ideology creeping into primary textbooks.
The history of religion, then, if it were to be taught, ought to be kept to the later end of secondary school (which, at least in PA schools in my experience, it is).

Yeah, I would have the same concern about ideology creeping into the textbooks.

Especially considering the influence Texas has on other textbooks - they were off on some complete bullshit about downplaying Thomas Jefferson as a minor figure in the formation of the country, downplaying the importance of the social movements at the middle of the last century, making Ronald Reagan out to be the chosen leader of Jesus Christ, etc. in the latest thing I read about their history book selection. 

Any book that specifically addressed Christianity would end up morphing into the bullshit evangelical cheer leading that goes on down there.

Christianity teaches 100% involvement and commitment or you go to hell. Absolute surrender to the law of Christ. You madam, are an alcoholic and a drug addict. Do you follow a subset of the bible?

That's just it, Nick.  God gave us the substances I use, and He's told us that ALL of it is for us, and that it isn't what you put into a man that defiles him, it's what comes out of him.  Like hate, cruelty, jealousy, etc.

It isn't a "subset" ~ it's taking the Bible for it's word, and not believing what other folks will tell you He's saying.  When you start depending upon someone else to Tell You The Rules, you're being mislead.  When you believe Jesus, what He told us, you know that the entire Bible can be summed up in the ONE "rule" of Do Unto Others.

We, as human beings, are going to sin and make mistakes, but if those mistakes aren't violating that "rule," we haven't done anything "wrong."  If I was having to steal for my drug and/or alcohol money, or turning into a Hate Machine whenever I drank/got stoned, I'd be going against everything I know about Him.  It WILL happen, occasionally ~ we're rebellious; but I don't make that a habit.  What I've tried to make a habit of is enjoying the good things I've been given, and sharing them with others.

I could very well be totally wrong about that, but when I think of the wars and hatred that religions have instigated and/or participated in,

just 'cuz someone thought God wanted all of THESE particular sinners to be wiped off the face of the earth,

and then went on to instruct and influence others to sit in judgment and carry out this mission,

well, I'm just not down with that.

I know that my relationship with Him is personal, and if He doesn't want me doing something?  Anything?  He'll take it away from me.  You don't know this, but I used to be a real drug addict ~ I was a coke shooter.  It went just so far, and He stopped me.  All of the sudden, I couldn't hit a vein to save my soul, and after a couple of tries, I got pissed off, and threw what I had away.  I never went back.  To this day, I don't touch coke (nor any other "hard" drugz), and not because it isn't there.  He doesn't want me to do that, and I know it, and I won't defy Him about it 'cuz I know why ~ He loves me and doesn't want me hurt.

The amazing thing is that I wasn't a believer at that time, but I knew it was Him working in my life.  I did become a Christian shortly after that, needless to say!

Something you may not know is that I use alcohol, medicinally, as a pain killer.  Oh, I ENJOY it, too, make no mistake, but THAT's the beauty of it!  I get to decide on my "treatment," and my choice is to use what He gave me, not a bunch of concoctions that man has semi-figured out will work. 

ROFL @ Zoomie!

I've often thought that Christian Fundamentalism would evaporate if there was proper coverage of the history of the formation of the bible in the primary school system. I'm against the mixing of church and state, but I'd be very happy to have kids learn about the history of religions. It's kind of an important topic in my view considering the impact of religion on modern life.

That whole Church/State thang?  Was to keep the gov out of the Churches, it was NEVER meant to keep the religious mores of the day out of our ethical selection of officials.

Yeah, I would have the same concern about ideology creeping into the textbooks.

Especially considering the influence Texas has on other textbooks - they were off on some complete bullshit about downplaying Thomas Jefferson as a minor figure in the formation of the country, downplaying the importance of the social movements at the middle of the last century, making Ronald Reagan out to be the chosen leader of Jesus Christ, etc. in the latest thing I read about their history book selection. 

Any book that specifically addressed Christianity would end up morphing into the bullshit evangelical cheer leading that goes on down there.

Wow.  I wasn't aware that you were a resident of Texas.

WTF is anyone turning everyone into evangelical cheer leaders?

Cripes, my son went to PAROCHIAL Public School.  That's right.  The convent and school in Panna Maria was the closest school, and the COMMUNITY wanted it like that.  That happens in a decent democracy ~ the MOST folks get to say how it is for ALL of the folks.

Miracle of miracles, he graduated, UNBAPTIZED, and no one thought a thing of that.

It's a matter of choice.  If there are options, you get a choice.  If there aren't, you don't.

What you fail to realize is that folks can decide for themselves.  At some point in our lives, we're able to throw off whatever influences we've been subjected to, and make our own decisions.

That whole Church/State thang?  Was to keep the gov out of the Churches, it was NEVER meant to keep the religious mores of the day out of our ethical selection of officials.

OK it saddens me to have to do this again but...

READ THE CONSTITUTION. Nowhere does it say "separation of church and state".

Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

That was meant to keep any religious group from getting too much power and becoming a state sponsored religion, not the other way around. Not the other way around.

I've often thought that Christian Fundamentalism would evaporate if there was proper coverage of the history of the formation of the bible in the primary school system. I'm against the mixing of church and state, but I'd be very happy to have kids learn about the history of religions. It's kind of an important topic in my view considering the impact of religion on modern life.

That whole Church/State thang?  Was to keep the gov out of the Churches, it was NEVER meant to keep the religious mores of the day out of our ethical selection of officials.

You're missing my point almost entirely. I did mention church versus state, but not in a "selection of officials" context. It's long been established that the federal government may not promote one religion over another through the school system and that has nothing to do with individual morals regarding voting. My point was that with proper education about how the bible came to exist in its current form I think much of the rampant biblical literalism that plagues us today would be cut away.

Another thing I think should be taught more is geology. People can't understand evolution today because they have almost no concept of evolutionary time. They think of things in terms of their own lifetimes. I'd like to see Religious History as a unit in World History classes and Geology could replacing Phys. Ed. I do recognize that this is the real world, though, and Emp and Mello are probably right about the crazies fucking it up for the poor gullible children that are our future.

Errr...

Never mind.

I suppose its the SCOTUS responsibility to interpret. But suffice it to say that I don't vote for any candidate who makes issue of their beliefs.

I'm going to start a religion. It's gonna be as batshit crazy as all the other ones. I's gonna be rich!!!

Make sure your holy writings contradict themselves every few pages and mix in a few solid "religious facts" like "gravity makes things fall upward" or "ice is warmer than fire" so that you can have a healthy and vigorous "the jury is still out because I say so" debate with scientists.

The issue isn't living in Texas.  It's that Texas is one of the largest purchasers of books in the country and as such, the school board there makes on textbooks affects what textbooks are available on the market.

In the case of Texas, they're making changes that in no way reflect the historical record.  If you rewrite history, though, you can teach a whole generation of kids that the founding fathers founded the nation on Christian ideals, that American capitalism is the only good way to run an economy, and that Ronald Reagan was the greatest president since George Washington.

If the facts of history seem a little too liberal, just ignore them and leave them out when you teach your kids.

The guy who heads the board in TX that chooses and actually edits (censors) schoolbooks was quoted as saying "All modern law is based on scripture so you cannot seperate church and state". Oh really? God gave us 10 commandments. Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie don't cheat, etc, mostly a moral guideline. Jesus said little more than "Love God, love each other, and try to be nice."

If all modern law were truly based on this we'd have little use for SCOTUS or any high courts, really. This is just another case of Christian fundamentalism forcing itself on the masses. Anyone in Texas with a lick of common sense, whether they are parents or not, should be screaming fascism.

So once again, fuck Texas, fuck Arizona and fuck Florida.