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Legalizing Marijuana(Read 13087 times)
Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #30 on: May 11, 2009, 02:46:07 PM
Not for a minute. But it did sound encouraging enough to me that I was thinking about trying out the dispensaries when I'm in California this summer.
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Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #31 on: May 11, 2009, 02:52:26 PM
Yes, and given there IS different rules state to state, country to country and places/situations where possession IS 100% legal ( western australia ) use of the word banned is pointless.

"In Western Australia, possession of up to 30 grams or two plants is accepted for private use." and thats no decriminalized thats 100% legal.

I would assume weed IS taxed when medical. I don't know.

In the US even though a particular state may declare marijuana legal, it is still illegal federally and the federal government still conducts raids and arrests of marijuana dispensaries whenever they feel like it. No matter what an individual state may decide, marijuana is without a doubt banned here in the USA.

In Western Australia posession of up to 30 grams is a ticketable offense. Posession of up to two plants is also a ticketable offense, as long as you're growing them in soil. If you're growing hydroponicly any number of plants in your posession is a criminal offense.

Prior to when the above laws went into effect Western Australia considered growing in excess of 25 plants to be a "serious offense" (felony level), with the new laws in effect that number has been reduced to 10.  

It has been decriminilized for personal use, which doesn't mean it is now legal, it means that the penalties have been lowered. Just so you know, the word ticketable means just that. If you have 5 grams of marijuana it's up to the Officer and the court's discression of whether you recieve a ticket or a more severe punishment.

Marijuana is still banned in Western Australia. Sorry, you lose again.
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Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #32 on: May 11, 2009, 03:18:43 PM
Clearly you have a different measure of what banned means. To mean it means finger prints and photos. End of fucking story.

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Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #33 on: May 11, 2009, 03:21:52 PM
Clearly you have a different measure of what banned means. To mean it means finger prints and photos. End of fucking story.

what



Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #34 on: May 11, 2009, 03:23:28 PM
Jesus fuck me in the ass. 
~
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Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #35 on: May 11, 2009, 03:34:24 PM
Clearly you have a different measure of what banned means. To mean it means finger prints and photos. End of fucking story.

It is still illegal, you can still be fingerprinted and photographed if the authorities decide to, it is still banned, and you are still a jackass.
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Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #36 on: May 11, 2009, 03:37:06 PM
No, you cant. You don't get fingerprints and photos for fines.
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Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #37 on: May 11, 2009, 03:39:36 PM
How about you two shut the fuck up.  Krsna: You're just a dick.  Hojo:  You will never agree with anyone
~
A pleasant man with a pleasant weapon



Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #38 on: May 11, 2009, 03:45:23 PM
did he call you in for reinforcements?



Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #39 on: May 11, 2009, 04:03:16 PM
Danzig, I'm not just a dick, I'm also right. Hojo is a dick but he's wrong, and that's bad.


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Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #40 on: May 11, 2009, 04:56:51 PM
No, I wasent.

I got you on taxes with med weed.

And I wasent allowed to mention anything about the counrties where weed is 100% legal, most likely due to you wanting to improve the odds of winning 'cause lets face it, it's legal in places.
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Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #41 on: May 11, 2009, 05:27:03 PM
Hojo, you never got me with taxes on med weed, it's not taxed. Find me legislation taxing marijuana and I'll admit that you're right. Unlike yourself, I find logic, reason, and facts very persuasive.

And what are you talking about with your 100% legal comment? It's either legal, or it's illegal. Giving the police the option to give you a ticket instead of arresting you doesn't make it legal. For example, murder is illegal. You go to prison, and in some areas can be given the death penalty. Compare that to driving with a broken tail light, for which you would get a ticket. Does the fact that you got only a ticket mean that driving with a broken tail light is NOT illegal? Do you really think that you could go in front of a court and get your ticket dismissed based on the argument that since it's only a ticket that driving with a broken tail light couldn't possibly be illegal?

I'll tell you what. Why don't you go smoke a joint in a Western Australia police station. After you're done paying your fines (if indeed you don't get outright arrested, it's still their option) you can tell me whether you consider marijuana banned or not.
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Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #42 on: May 11, 2009, 05:31:36 PM
Weed ain't even fully legal in Amsterdam. It's just tolerated.
ever tried. ever failed. no matter. try again. fail again. fail better.



Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #43 on: May 11, 2009, 05:31:49 PM
BTW that reminds me of something. New thread.
ever tried. ever failed. no matter. try again. fail again. fail better.



Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #44 on: May 11, 2009, 05:38:03 PM
People are going to use it whether or not it's legal.

I'm not decided on this topic yet.

I think it is stupid that people get sent to prison for marijuana, when they let people off that do far worse crimes.
Yet if it was legalized, it may just become a bigger problem, people would probably abuse it more since it'd be legal.

I guess if it does become legal, I think people should only be able to legally have a certain amount on them.



Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #45 on: May 11, 2009, 05:39:54 PM
Sales tax

http://www.cannabis-med.org/english/bulletin/ww_en_db_cannabis_artikel.php?id=204

and i already mentioned we have a different benchmark of banned. The reason for that is most likely i have smoked infront of police before, and not been arrested in a town, in a state that is a "banned" zone, that has people openly selling weed on the street 24/7.
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Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #46 on: May 11, 2009, 05:58:28 PM
I think banned is a bad word for this topic.

I realize that something you can get away with doing in front of a cop can be considered literally banned, but banned does call to mind the sort of thing you'd be arrested on sight for doing. Pissing in public is banned, but in London last summer I just got a quick verbal warning from a cop for doing it at about 4am somewhere or other (seriously, no fucking idea where I was at the time - I was plastered and lost). I've smoked joints in front of cops in Spain, and had them not even give me a second look. Same in Holland. Yet technically weed is illegal in both places, therefore "banned".

I think we're arguing over semantics, and honestly it's getting boring.
ever tried. ever failed. no matter. try again. fail again. fail better.



Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #47 on: May 11, 2009, 11:00:52 PM
I'm currently in public policy school, so hopefully I can try to articulate why I think the policy is the way it is and why it should or shouldn't change.  If I can't do this well obviously I need to practice my skills more.

First, I myself grew up with a strong sense of individual liberty, my mom died when I was really young, my dad worked all the time and rarely supervised me, and from about the age of 8 on to my present age of 24 I have had pretty much no one telling me what to do except what I myself thought was right and wrong.  I had guidance, but my dad left me a lot of freedom to decide things for myself, he has his own views on religion but never indoctrinated me with any of them, he has own views of politics, drugs, guns, etc. but let me make up my own mind.  Because of that, I'm now an adult and I value that individual freedom highly -- higher than pretty much any other principle for declaring the value of something in relation to the ways of government.

Therefore, personally, I believe that not only weed, but all drugs should be legal all the way up to heroin and crack and that each individual person should be responsible for themselves and what they choose to put in their own body and that the government should have no right to interfere in any way (except to possibly educate citizens on the merits and consequences of any possible drug consumption in an intelligent and informative way); however most people and most governments find this view horrific and irrational and I can understand why.

People our age (I'll say 30 and under without intentionally excluding the older members of the forums) grew up in an era much different from previous generations.  Our generation places individualism in a much higher regard than community by virtually everyone.  In the past a lot of things about your life were pre-determined based on where you came from, who you ran with, who your family was, etc. etc. (group and communal identity).  A few months ago before I started graduate school I was teaching math, and I was teaching kids as young as 7 years old who had their own cellular phones - you can hit up the mobile of a first grader now and its normal for kids to have their own phone number.

A lot of people who are older tend to view community and social values much higher than we do today and think that they should be something definite.  I am from Placeville, USA we don't do that here that's not who we are and it actually means something of tangible moral value.  I personally don't value that kind of thinking at all, but that is the majority held value for most people in all societies today still.  I am of the mind that I am some dude and I'll do this or that based on how I think it will effect me and it's none of your fucking business one way or the other.  The thing is, that most people who are growing up today are of my type of people, they are hyper-individualized and they will come to voting age and decide that the government has absolutely no business telling me what I can and cannot do when it does not legitimately affect them one way or the other.  That is the social/people angle.

The government angle, I see in the same way I see most other laws.  The United States (and to be fair to Ho-Jo and others -- Any other Western-style government overseeing a loosely capitalist economy) has every incentive to create laws in such a way that they maximize productivity.  Legalizing marijuana in our country would certainly increase consumption of marijuana in our country.  We'd certainly have more quality music being produced here, but would we have more widgets being produced at the widget factory if everyone was getting high all the time?  Not likely.  On the plus side maybe it would reduce stress and overall be a net gain in healthy living, maybe it would replace other more destructive vices and improve quality of life.  I don't know, and people who design policy don't have the luxury of seeing all of the positive and negative consequences until after it is enacted.  It's not always good enough to say "Look at the Netherlands, they are top tits, let's just copy their policy."  In the United States there is a culture of big everything and high consumption, super size me, give me a grande latte, fucking give me a 80" TV that sucks my cock.  I'm not really sure if moderation is even in the collective U.S. cultural vocabulary.  On top of that you want to say "this drug is now legal, go hog wild."  The consequences for a lot of people would probably be very substantially negative.

It is not in a capitalist country's incentive to create laws which decrease its productivity, because it gets tax revenue from productivity, it gets economic strength from productivity, and in our country virtually every aspect of your life is somehow influenced by what you do for money.  Unless the net legalized income gain (and it would most certainly be taxed) from legalizing marijuana or (anything else) outstrips the net production loss from encouraging more citizens to actively consume drugs, it is not in the government's incentive to do so.

Eventually, enough of us (strong individuals) will outstrip them (moralizing communitarians) at the voting booths that marijuana will be legalized -- I don't know when but I don't think it will be too far down the line, and I think the same about gay marriage too, that it should be legal, (but a lot of the same arguments would apply in an anti-gay marriage defense of current government policy).

Please criticize any of my claims that don't make sense or are outright wrong.  I'm in policy school trying to actually work in government some day -- MAKING THESE TYPES OF DECISIONS FOR A LIVING -- so the way I develop and defend these arguments matters to me quite a bit.
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Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #48 on: May 11, 2009, 11:19:02 PM
good luck getting a government jobs with those views
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Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #49 on: May 11, 2009, 11:21:30 PM
All I can say right now is good post. I'm gonna read it again when not high as shit and give you a more detailed answer.
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Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #50 on: May 11, 2009, 11:22:47 PM
good luck getting a government jobs with those views

I'll probably end up working in defense/economic policy (that's what I'm studying mainly) so my political/individual views won't really clash with that at all.  That's how I reconcile it. 
That's why I chose not to work at all in social policy or law because my views are so completely divergent, etc. like you said.

Also I think I reconciled it in my post.  Obviously my views are much more individualistic than most, but I also recognize that I have the privilege of much better education and much better upbringing than a lot of other people.  Policy effecting drug laws would effect all people including most who are less educated and less privileged than myself and thus I don't think that my own personal view on this matter would make for good policy because it doesn't square rightly with the way people behave.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 11:26:32 PM by Libertine »
Pour the wine, hold the grind, quarter to nine, let's go.



Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #51 on: May 11, 2009, 11:27:58 PM
Well, besides what you want to do individually...

The "white" US is going to lose out to other cultures who value education higher. This is what your government sees. It sees that a large % the top students in most fields are immigrants or first generation immigrants, and that other countries are getting richer relative to the US as globalization spreads. Curbing drug use in it's own back yard is a governments way of protecting it's future.

That and as you said, Americans don't believe that "moderation" applies to them.
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Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #52 on: May 12, 2009, 12:00:56 AM
Good find on the sales tax hojo. I would argue that it's only one town in one state and only a general sales tax and therefore not a specific marijuana tax, but then you would argue that a tax is a tax and have less slippery footing than the "shovels are taxed so marijuana is taxed" argument.

I imagine that sales tax is what marijuana advocates had in mind when they first started trying to tempt gov't into legalizing it with dollar signs, but never underestimate the a politician's greed. California has had a bill introduced that if passed would make marijuana legal for persons age 21 or over. Growers would have to pay a $5,000 dollar "franchise" fee that would be renewed at $2,500 per year. Additionally, there would be a $50 per ounce tax which is pretty steep considering that top of the line weed wholesales at about $4000 per pound. It's a nearly 25% tax at the wholesale level and roughly 12.5% tax at the retail level assuming a selling price of $400 per ounce. If the per ounce price is less than that (which it surely would be once large commercial operations were growing) you could easily be looking at 1/3 of the total cost of marijuana being taxes. That's robbery.
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Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #53 on: May 12, 2009, 12:10:45 AM
argument ? I havent even tried to argue. I dont come here to be serious. Which you should of twigged to from the first post.
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Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #54 on: May 12, 2009, 05:04:14 AM
Yes, and given there IS different rules state to state, country to country and places/situations where possession IS 100% legal ( western australia ) use of the word banned is pointless.

"In Western Australia, possession of up to 30 grams or two plants is accepted for private use." and thats no decriminalized thats 100% legal.

I would assume weed IS taxed when medical. I don't know.

I thought it was SA, not WA. WA's way to conservative for that.



Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #55 on: May 12, 2009, 06:10:18 AM
Naa. WA copied SA. Last I heard it's 50g and 2 plants for WA. As for SA i remember they changed the growing rules to cut down on crop size.

I think the 50g has been cut back. The big difference is WA has bigger fines. SA is still like hands out it's fines like a parking ticket. Can't remember the price you pay though.

and then there's Nimbin, which is on a different planet.
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Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #56 on: May 12, 2009, 06:15:14 AM
Loaded-Gun.com - I don't know what the hell they are talking about or why they are even there. They don't make serious points and they don't joke, but they still manage to make a lot of posts somehow.



Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #57 on: May 12, 2009, 06:31:17 AM
Right. Didnt know that.

Anyways, there's no way in hell that any government is going to end the prohibition on marijuana. Its that simple. Governments by and large are socially conservative in the way they conduct themselves, show me a socially radical government that has lasted (even Castro's government in Cuba is socially conservative).

Listen to Okie from Muskogee, even though it was writen and recorded 40something years ago, pretty much sums up the general community attitude to marijuana. These are the people that the governments of the world actively pander to, because these are the people that actually vote.

Decriminalisation was introduced to free the court system of the kind of dumb fucks that are stupid enough to repeatedly get caught with a gram or two of weed. It has never meant a lifting of the prohibition.

Ok, all that said, there are commerically grown hemp crops in Australia, artificially selected and bred to have extrememly low levels of THC. Thing is, the people working these crops are also subject to very strict vetting, and work under very strict controls. So, very loosely, I guess there is taxation on marijuana.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 06:32:35 AM by Mosh »



Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #58 on: May 12, 2009, 08:48:47 AM
i'm now restaurant and bar manager and probably making a lot more money than a lot of people on this board, including you.
A:  $30K-$45K
B:  $45K-$60K
C:  $60K-$75K
D:  $75K+
E:  none of the above

???
Like yours.  Only different.



Re: Legalizing Marijuana Reply #59 on: May 12, 2009, 09:01:07 AM
Serious, but potentially uninformed, post:
I think the original criminalization of marijuana was one of the first moves by big tobacco in Washington.
I also think that the potency of the drug has increased radically in the last century, as breeding programs have been put in place to increase strength and yield.
so, if the weak-ass, ditch-weed cannabis from a century ago was made illegal, I can't see how we'll end up with any of the current, more potent, stock legalized.
Like yours.  Only different.