...just became even more convinced of his atheism by watching the end of that ben stein documentary railing against darwinism, even equating darwinism with nazism.
 
intelligent design is entirely possible, just as is the idea of an absolute deity who controls the entire universe and everything within.

the point that nobody seems to get is that it DOES NOT MATTER if such a deity exists, because a being or entity THAT powerful does not give a flying FUCK what we pathetic mortal, carbon-based nothings profess to believe in.

why would something that amazing and omnipotent want us to skip to the end of the book and figure out that all this "science" is just a puzzle it left for us? if you have a child and you're trying to teach that child something, don't you prefer that the child tries to learn the subject, and not just questions the purpose of learning the subject?

I have very little "faith" that there is a deity of any kind, and that we're something more than a happy accident, living out our insignificant lives on our nice little planet. but if there were anything that's powerful enough to have engineered all of this, then I at least am not pretentious enough to believe that I have any hope of understanding its intentions or "plan" for all of this!

because a being or entity THAT powerful does not give a flying FUCK what we pathetic mortal, carbon-based nothings profess to believe in.

This thought was one of the earliest things that made me start down the path of questioning religion.
It's funny in a way though - as a child I want to church every Sunday and I had several family members who were all very religious. I honestly can't remember *ever * believing in it... I just went along with it as a kid because as a kid you do what you're told, but I really don't think I *ever* believed.

In arguments like this with the gung-ho religious, though, I always walk into the same repetitious dialogue:
Me - If God the omnipotent creator of the universe is so big and mighty, why the heck would he care what I did, much less whether I even believed in him?
Them - But God is the embodiment of Love. You can't imagine that you would care because you don't have infinite love like he does.
Me - Well I can imagine I'd be interested in my creation if I had created life. I'd watch it, sure, but I'd think of it like a colony of bacteria or an ant farm. I wouldn't get angry if I saw my creations "misbehaving." Heck, I wouldn't even know what it would mean for them to be "misbehaving"
Them - But now you're imagining yourself as God. You are a mere human. There is no way you can fathom his thoughts.
Me - Well then how do we know he wants us to do what it says in the Bible? If we can't understand his thoughts, how do we know he's all about the infinite love?
Them - The Bible was inspired by God. God directly implanted the words of the bible into the heads of the prophets as his way to communicate with his creation.
Me - Well first of all if I was God I could probably figure out a way to "carbon copy" my personal message into the brains of all mankind, but I'm sure you'll just say...
Them - "A mere mortal will never be able to...
Me - ...fathom his thoughts." Yes, exactly. I still think that if it was I that had communicated this important message to my creations via certain special messenger creations then if the message got scrambled or failed to get around then it would be either the fault of the messengers or most likely my fault. I wouldn't damn for all eternity those that hadn't heard or hadn't understood my message.
Them - You know you really seem to have this major problem thinking that God is likely to think human thoughts like you. Let me tell you something, buster: God is all powerful love. You can't understand how his mind works!
Me - OK, OK. Listen, don't call me buster. I hear you loud and clear... And yet... somehow certain old wise-men were able to understand how God's mind works and write it into a books for us to...
Them - We went over this. It was inspired by God.
Me - How do we even know that? Did the prophets tell us?
Them - Yes.
Me - And we believed them?
Them - We have faith in them.

This is where the conversation always ends.
They have faith, I don't. I need evidence to base faith on, they don't.

If that were quoteboxable, I'd be quoteboxing it right now.

quotebox your balls

I did... but they were krsna's balls.

This is where the conversation always ends.
They have faith, I don't. I need evidence to base faith on, they don't.

Realistically, this is where most religious conversations should begin AND end.

If people don't even agree on the basic premise of the discussion, there's little point in having said discussion.

Do you have faith? 
Yes/No
Oh.  Well, what about that local sports team of ours?

In arguments like this with the gung-ho religious, though, I always walk into the same repetitious dialogue:
Me - If God the omnipotent creator of the universe is so big and mighty, why the heck would he care what I did, much less whether I even believed in him?

God's existence depends upon you and everyone else believing in him.

When there were less people in the world, a little bit of belief went a long way towards making something real.  As more people came into the world, the percentage of people that believed in a SPECIFIC thing strongly and surely enough grew smaller.  So, the more people that have the option of NOT believing in God, Allah, Yahweh, Earth Mother, or any slight deviation of one of those (God who forgives all things, versus God who forgives all things but suicide, versus...), the less able to affect our world each of those entities become.  And, as everyone knows, existence depends on your ability to touch the world around you.

It's self-interest, you see.  These beings cease to exist as people stop believing in them.

PS - Unicorns still exist, but only as a fractional potential of their former selves.
PPS - And as it turns out, agnostics do the most damage to the whole thing, by not believing in one thing strongly enough to have their perception of reality actually count.

Omnipotent beings never existed in the first place. Except as abstractions, which is hardly an existence.

Its like saying that thoughts exist. But do they? Really? Where do thoughts exist? Other than electrical impusles in the brain, what properties does a thought have?

Its like saying that thoughts exist. But do they? Really? Where do thoughts exist? Other than electrical impusles in the brain, what properties does a thought have?

It is perceivable, by you.  That's a property.

Its like saying that thoughts exist. But do they? Really? Where do thoughts exist? Other than electrical impusles in the brain, what properties does a thought have?

thoughts do not own real estate, people do

My ancestors said to me, 'This we know: the earth does not belong to us... we belong to the earth'." -Chief Seattle

My ancestors said to me, 'This we know: the earth does not belong to us... we belong to the earth'." -Chief Seattle

My ancestors said to me, give that man a blanket.

...and he'll be warm for a day. Give him a bottle of firewater and he'll have a friend for life.

haha!

Ah the bitter humor of the anonymous and the squatter kid. Try to find a more constructive way of apologizing for the behavior of your ancestors.

(Am I the anonymous?  No.  I was lpxq (and sycophant) way back on the ol' AS boards.)
I daren't apologize for my ancestors!  I wouldn't have the great digs I presently enjoy were it not for barbed wire fences and smallpox blankets.  It is interesting that there aren't more darwinists praising the actions of the settlers from Europe.

I guess it depends on what you mean by Darwinists...

Social Darwinists?
Eugenicists?
Subscribers to the theory of Darwinian evolution?

Well, considering that my lineage never made it west of Lake Erie, I sleep well at night.

One of the good things about this new school is the increase in people I know who believe in God.
No one here has called me a foo' or a sheep yet.

Oh, come on now. Nobody's persecutin'. It's all just talk online.

most people have many mental blocks that prevent them from having everything they could ever want, it's easier to believe in god because we're taught to think we'll fail and god is conveniently tolerant of underachievement

(Am I the anonymous?  No.  I was lpxq (and sycophant) way back on the ol' AS boards.)
I daren't apologize for my ancestors!  I wouldn't have the great digs I presently enjoy were it not for barbed wire fences and smallpox blankets.  It is interesting that there aren't more darwinists praising the actions of the settlers from Europe.

That was sort of the gist of the Ben Stein thing.

most people have many mental blocks that prevent them from having everything they could ever want, it's easier to believe in god because we're taught to think we'll fail and god is conveniently tolerant of underachievement

I'm not one of those people.

(Am I the anonymous?  No.  I was lpxq (and sycophant) way back on the ol' AS boards.)
I daren't apologize for my ancestors!  I wouldn't have the great digs I presently enjoy were it not for barbed wire fences and smallpox blankets.  It is interesting that there aren't more darwinists praising the actions of the settlers from Europe.

That was sort of the gist of the Ben Stein thing.

I kind of wanted to see the Ben Stein thing. I forget what it was called but I remember that even its title was enraging.
I like to be morally outraged. It's good to know I can care passionately about things even if it's just for a few hours.
It makes me feel kind of refreshingly alive whereas the reality of my existence can be summer up in five words: waiting for water to boil.

most people have many mental blocks that prevent them from having everything they could ever want, it's easier to believe in god because we're taught to think we'll fail and god is conveniently tolerant of underachievement

I'm not one of those people.

I think it's specifically moral underachievement, rather than general underachievement.  Especially in the US - how do you justify living so high on the hog and doing whatever you want?  It's a blessing from God!

Religious people tend to be highly intolerant of career/financial underachievement, I find, in stark contrast to the primary figures in religious literature.

Oh, come on now. Nobody's persecutin'. It's all just talk online.

umm i was talking about at my school.

One of the good things about this new school is the increase in people I know who believe in God.
No one here has called me a foo' or a sheep yet.

Sheep!

Which "God"?

Ah, a key question.

Whether I call you a foo' or a sheep depends on your answer to Krsna's question
Because if your god is hard drinks and soft women then I have absolutely nothing bad to say.

Which "God"?

Hey, spermthrower, that's my line.