Well, that and a long decline in the standards of a public education.

Maybe we could blame that on getting rid of corporal punishment.  Everyone's kid is a precious flower now who could be the next Albert Einstein if only we're lenient enough.

I was pretty strict and held my children to a much higher standard than the schools. But I never hit them and didn't allow anyone else to either.

Imagine if every country took 10% of its military budget and used it to pay really smart, qualified teachers (and even possibly TA's of some sort, depending on class size) to educate its populace.

I like this, the only thing I would modify is that smartness alone isn't enough. I've had brilliant professors who couldn't teach themselves out of a wet paper bag. Teaching ability involves great interpersonal skills. You have to feed off the students and engage them in different ways depending on the class and depending on the student. Perhaps that's what you meant by qualified. If so I agree completely.

Everyone's kid is a precious flower now who could be the next Albert Einstein if only we're lenient enough.

True. And bad grades or doing drugs shouldn't dissuade anyone. Every one knows that Albert Einstein got bad grades in school...

ethnic minoritie are more likely to go to higher ed now.

Why that is outrageous sir!  Get those coons off of my university's back porch!

Coons? When ra-coons try to get on our back porch, momma just chase them off with a broom.

At the bottom the the 4576 page doc, that you know by heart, outlining the stats and strategies of all the other teams and coaches.

Haha man seriously!

I like this, the only thing I would modify is that smartness alone isn't enough. I've had brilliant professors who couldn't teach themselves out of a wet paper bag. Teaching ability involves great interpersonal skills. You have to feed off the students and engage them in different ways depending on the class and depending on the student. Perhaps that's what you meant by qualified. If so I agree completely.

That's totally what I meant. If teachers were paid a salary that people would actually compete for, we'd soon weed out all the people teaching cuz they think it's an easy gig with nice vacation time, as well as the people who are smart and eager but unfortunately suck at teaching. We'd end up with an almost entirely good batch of people shaping the next generation's minds.

I was reading this thread and suddenly realized that I don't give a shit ...

About time someone said something sensible in this thread.

Why, thank you, man!
So, how's your day going today?

I will have to sit back and read this thread sometime - I love reading debates on education, but I am split on debating it. I feel like I talk till I'm blue in the face. The system is outdated. Programs coddle kids now to make up for the parents who remember a time of beating (Zooms, Philly Archdioceses had a beating policy into 1990/1991 to my memory. But parents had to sign a waiver saying beating was OK). Textbooks need changing, curriculum needs updating, badly. Funding is not properly allocated to poorer districts. The fucking No Child Left Behind BS only makes schools care about Terra Nova scores, not learning and achieving. Sports vs Arts. Nothing ever changes. it is nearly impossible to become a teacher in some states, while morons easily slip in elsewhere and you as a teacher spend a lifetime in school for yourself just to keep up the required credits, draining your wallet and meeting unreachable requirements for little pay and shit healthcare. It's a raw deal.

teaches the kids who might one day be the doctor that saves his life makes $94,000 a year

Sasha, I'm not sure if I read this correctly, as I'm in a hurry, but the average teacher starts around 27K and will cap at 45K/year unless you are lucky to land in a decent district that pays well, which are rare and very hard to get into. But this is on the East Coast, I'm told the West can be different.

Yeah, I read that and blinked a couple of times too.

Setting the pay scale for teachers is hard. On one hand, teaching is a lifetime of service, and without quality education a country's economy heads south fast. On the other, once you're a teacher it's possible to coast on what you know for the next 40 years without having to worry about where your next paycheck will come from.

So why not pay 'em more and expect more?

because there are limits to what they can do with their employees. This is why private schools pay teachers more, because they're expected to deliver academic results and can be dismissed for failing to meet targets. My parents are both high school teachers, and while they do their best for their kids they don't have to.

Senior Teachers in QLD now get 74k a year. Dpt Heads can get up to about 100k

http://www.qtu.asn.au/salary_scales_teachersawardstate_ca2006_asat1july_2009.pdf

What blows my mind is that the guy who coaches football at the University of Texas at Austin makes $2,910,000 a year and the guy who teaches the kids who might one day be the doctor that saves his life makes $94,000 a year.

supporting evidence:
http://www.bls.gov/OCO/ocos066.htm#earnings

By rank, the average was $98,974 for professors, $69,911 for associate professors, $58,662 for assistant professors, $42,609 for instructors, and $48,289 for lecturers. Faculty in 4-year institutions earn higher salaries, on average, than do those in 2-year schools. In 2006-07, faculty salaries averaged $84,249 in private independent institutions, $71,362 in public institutions, and $66,118 in religiously affiliated private colleges and universities.

Mac Brown is making more than $2.9 million this year... now it's $5.1 to coach football at The University of Texas at Austin.

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/longhorns/entries/2009/08/05/brown_will_make.html

Nick, I think education works very differently here.
In most states teachers are required to gain X amount of post college credits dealing with their subject each year in order to keep teaching. You often are required to pay for these college credits out of pocket and you are rarely reimbursed the full amount (hence the true unfairness in the salaries). While it was the case some time ago that you could get a bachelors or an equivalent and coast on that knowledge for the rest of your career, most states now require this extra learning, plus a masters or a solid start on obtaining a masters.

Also, Private Schools will often pay their teachers considerably less than a public district. The reason is income tax based government funding. However things like Charter schools pay somewhere in between the two.
The reason people flock to private schools is because they are looking for that distinctive listing on their resume, the kids are usually calm (generally) and you are rarely denied materials for your classroom (because of tuition).

Canaan is really a rich public school district.

As for "evidence" -  I dont know if 13 was talking about professors, but I assumed she was talking about primary and secondary educators (as she did mention "kids") of which do not make those salaries and the salaries are entirely based on district, but overall are between 27K and 45K in the east coast urban areas.

Edited: Upon checking the same website:

Median annual earnings of kindergarten, elementary, middle, and secondary school teachers ranged from $43,580 to $48,690 in May 2006; the lowest 10 percent earned $28,590 to $33,070; the top 10 percent earned $67,490 to $76,100. Median earnings for preschool teachers were $22,680.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos069.htm#earnings

Mac Brown is making more than $2.9 million this year... now it's $5.1 to coach undefeated football at The University of Texas at Austin.

When I said "The University of Texas at Austin" and kids, I just thought people would assume I meant college aged individuals generally between the ages of 18-22.

I dont really associate 18-22 with "kids" but regardless, I haven't read the whole thread (working on that now, though thinking I want to give that up and try to hit it since detroit just got home) sorry for the unnecessary salary confusion thread....now deferring

and without quality education a country's economy heads south fast.

Has not a single iota of impact on the economy. There is not one single shred of evidence that mandatory schooling and arbitrary tests taken by the state have any impact on "the economy" as defined by a supposed quality of living or on the ability of a nation to compete globally. Schooling in America serves only one main purpose, to produce minimally functional slaves for the workplace. And secondarily to produce "America" drones.

what's the alternative?

Religion.

I was pretty strict and held my children to a much higher standard than the schools upside down in a dunktank.

I'm curious if Tru has any decent follow up to his statement, or if he was simply being a fuckwit

Education is now available to more people worldwide than it has ever been. If it's designed to prepare people for jobs then that's not a government conspiracy, it's just a natural progression from a trade-based society that has existed for thousands of years.

I do think that teaching to standardized will lead to a decline in the quality of education.

your system of having funding available on the base of some set of test results is bizarre.

your system of having funding available on the base of some set of test results is bizarre.

How else would you recommend even coming close to correctly distributing funds when, as a whole, you cannot provide enough funds to make everyone happy?

It is beyond bizarre. Also, students call bullshit on tests like terra nova, and purposely dole out poor results, which hurt the school in regards to funding... and who can blame them? I hated taking those tests. they were called "CAT" then.

your system of having funding available on the base of some set of test results is bizarre.

How else would you recommend even coming close to correctly distributing funds when, as a whole, you cannot provide enough funds to make everyone happy?

How about maintaining each school to an equal standard, based on student numbers.

When minorities make more money than white people then they will have better schools.

It is beyond bizarre. Also, students call bullshit on tests like terra nova, and purposely dole out poor results, which hurt the school in regards to funding... and who can blame them? I hated taking those tests. they were called "CAT" then.

It's called FCAT here, and it's still bullshit ...

Contrary to popular belief. I actually care deeply about the needs of ginger people. Or "Persons of hair colour challengement", as I call it.

I propose that they are all located in particular regions of major cities. Because its important for them to feel safe.And Ginger-phobes are BANNED from calling them ginger ghettos.

Infact I like them so much, we could build new towns for them, at no cost to them. With free rail transport to, and .. Well and we could welcome them with nice ermm.. showers.

Ginger people we feel your pain. We CARE. So please vote for me - the "Gingers. The Final Solution Party".