no more kick a ginger day...

it's a funny joke... however if anyone too big for me to kick their ass tried it I'd have them charged and (if they were foreigners) deported. They can chuckle away as they try to find work with a police record

The concept of an in-school suspension is so weird. They punish little delinquents by suspending their education. First of all, most delinquents are just as happy to sit in the padded guidance office doing coloring-book exercises as anything else at school. There aren't a lot of these emotionally disturbed tykes that actually feel any loss of educational potential. It takes staff time to babysit them and ultimately accomplishes nothing more than alienating these kids from the rest of the class even more than they already were. It's a punishment for the parents and it's a punishment in the sense that the kid knows he's in "deep shit" whatever that means. The problem is a modern one. Teachers feel helpless. How else can you punish a 3rd grader?

I'll tell you how. Switches and Paddles.

The concept of an in-school suspension is so weird. They punish little delinquents by suspending their education. First of all, most delinquents are just as happy to sit in the padded guidance office doing coloring-book exercises as anything else at school. There aren't a lot of these emotionally disturbed tykes that actually feel any loss of educational potential.

Worked for me. I waited till lunch hour and walked the fuck out. Haven't been back to school since.

bring back caning

They did, at the first secondary school I went to. I'd left a couple weeks before that, though, after my dad almost got in a fistfight with the vice principal.

Meh... kids and South Park.

Yeah I should clarify I'm not saying the Ginger Day kids were particularly deserving of corporal punishment. I just think they should bring it back. Toughen the little fucks up.

We were talking about gingers today at lunch. I'll told a joke I know I've posted for zoomie before.
 
"There was a little boy reading harry potter, as he read his mother heard him saying 'this is unbelievable! completely unrealistic!'
she said to him 'bit old for magic stories now then?'
he replied 'it's not that, i just can't believe the ginger kid had two friends!'"

Twas funny.

It takes staff time to babysit them and ultimately accomplishes nothing more than alienating these kids from the rest of the class even more than they already were.

alienating? the kids that got isolation at my old school were the ones never alone.

Yeah I should clarify I'm not saying the Ginger Day kids were particularly deserving of corporal punishment. I just think they should bring it back. Toughen the little fucks up.

The e-crush is over.  :'(


that's also the first time ive used a smilie in a post here, i think.

C'est la vie.
I was raised on spankings.

Whereas I've never received one.

The kids that did this stuff at my old school were the kids that didnt get any kind of discipline at home, I can't believe that spanking kids at school but not disciplining them at home will help.

Pain trains people. It works on a person's most fundamental level. So I think it would help the teacher maintain a totalitarian hold.
There are clearly areas where the system breaks down. Sadistic teachers, misunderstood kids, etc.
I was probably being overly hyperbolistic.

My favorite solution to bad behavior is school is to make school voluntary. None of this state-mandated education. If kids want to give up on school let them. If their parents force them that's one thing, but to have a legal requirement... That's silly. And forget about in-school suspensions. Send the kids home of they misbehave.

There are problems here too, of course. The uneducated will still get to vote in elections. So we have to make votes correspond to intellectual achievements. You get one extra vote per year of school finished or something.

Then we run into systemic bias against minorities. So there are problems everywhere.

Pain trains people and bullying builds character.
Because as far as I'm concerned, a teacher beating a child is nothing more than bullying.

Some teachers are nice people.
I can attest to the fact that my parents weren't bullying me in the traditional sense when I was spanked. It really was a "this is for your own good" kind of thing whereas bullying is a "this is for my enjoyment" kind of thing.
For teachers that would employ spankings judiciously I see no problems.

I think its a very different thing to be hit in your own home by your parents than at school with your classmates and by a teacher.

EDIT: also, http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=29081979545

Yeah you're right. We should probably enable the problem kids by letting them play in the "time out zone" in the guidance office as punishment for bullying. That way their feelings might not get hurt and then we can alleviate the disastrous effects it might have on their self-consciousness years down the road. When they get back from "time out," their classmates are sure to recognize that they've been rehabilitated just like society welcomes rehabilitated criminals back with open arms. The important thing is that as long as nobody gets a bruise we'll all get to turn those frowns upside down. This will ultimately bring down crime and make us safer and happier as a society - certainly happier than society was in the old black and white days when we hadn't yet discovered feelings.

EDIT: I'm only half serious. I don't really relish the idea of hurting kids. I think if you're a good teacher you inspire so much respect that the students will trip over themselves to please you. Teachers that punish their students physically are publicly demonstrating that they've failed to achieve this degree of respect and that they've failed miserably. I was rarely in trouble as a kid, but I remember that witnessing punishment being meted out tended to lower my opinion of the teacher. So don't worry that I'd be opposing anyone on this issue at the PTA. I'm just playing advocate to a dark and sulfurous master.

Pssh, your problem is that you're just not going back far enough.
We need to go back to the days of the rack, torturing methods like no sleep, no food.

The cane's too weak, only wimps fear that.

Are you imagining that I don't already have a dungeon with restraints and ball-gags set up for any and all cute under-agers that happen to wander in?...
...Because I'm Chris Hansen with Dateline NBC and we're doing a story on adults who buy prefab dungeons.

My favorite solution to bad behavior is school is to make school voluntary. None of this state-mandated education. If kids want to give up on school let them. If their parents force them that's one thing, but to have a legal requirement... That's silly. And forget about in-school suspensions. Send the kids home of they misbehave.

I've said this in the past too. Schooling should be voluntary. If you don't want to learn how to read and such stuff then you can pick tomatoes. Save us from needing so many illegal farm workers.

But the system has been set up in such a way that people are forced to work to survive and school serves the purpose of freeing up the parents to do productive work for corporations and the children can be trained by the system in state mandated schools to replace them when they wear out. It's close to perfect.

Young people have no concept of discipline and punishment. When you've been beaten unconscious with the buckle of a 2 inch leather belt, held by your ankles screaming and then dropped from a 2d floor balcony, forced to hold encyclopedias at arms length until you pass out, or roundhouse kicked in the chin splitting it open requiring 7 stitches, all before age 12, you can whine to me about punishment hedging on abuse.

And that was my brother. You don't want to know about my mom...

My favorite solution to bad behavior is school is to make school voluntary. None of this state-mandated education. If kids want to give up on school let them. If their parents force them that's one thing, but to have a legal requirement... That's silly. And forget about in-school suspensions. Send the kids home of they misbehave.

I've said this in the past too. Schooling should be voluntary. If you don't want to learn how to read and such stuff then you can pick tomatoes. Save us from needing so many illegal farm workers.

But the system has been set up in such a way that people are forced to work to survive and school serves the purpose of freeing up the parents to do productive work for corporations and the children can be trained by the system in state mandated schools to replace them when they wear out. It's close to perfect.

You sir, are a moron.

Duh.

My solution is a strict program of mandatory sterilization.

You first.

My favorite solution to bad behavior is school is to make school voluntary. None of this state-mandated education. If kids want to give up on school let them. If their parents force them that's one thing, but to have a legal requirement... That's silly. And forget about in-school suspensions. Send the kids home of they misbehave.

I've said this in the past too. Schooling should be voluntary. If you don't want to learn how to read and such stuff then you can pick tomatoes. Save us from needing so many illegal farm workers.

But the system has been set up in such a way that people are forced to work to survive and school serves the purpose of freeing up the parents to do productive work for corporations and the children can be trained by the system in state mandated schools to replace them when they wear out. It's close to perfect.

You sir, are a moron.

Why yes of course what was I thinking.

As the kid of two school teachers I can't think of a single positive reason to let kids leave school before they're 16. I actually thought you were being sarcastic, but if you're not and you have some reasoning to back up your statement then by all means lets have it.

What about the notion that the school does them little of any good because they don't let it do much if any,... added to the fact that they do have a profoundly negative impact on the time, mood, and education process of the teacher and other students?
Note how I suggest here no really better alternatives to babysitting them in the in-school suspension, but still...

Man, In School Suspension sucks!

You still have to get up early and go to fucking school, then you have to sit at a desk all day long and you're supposed to do homework and shit. And you're not allowed to talk.

It's a pretty miserable way to have to spend your day.

The best, though, was being so bad that you got put into the retarded kids class.

They had a drawer full of presents for when you were well behaved AND they gave so much time to do assignments that you could screw around half the day instead of listening to your stupid teacher ramble on about stuff that you didn't care about.

That sounds way better than ISS.

Growing up in my household, dinner discussions between Mum and Dad were about how so-and-so had dropped out and was now working at the factory or doing drugs. Or that so-and-so had pulled it together and got an apprenticeship or made it into college, and that shaped my thinking. I believe kids under 16 don't have a real-world picture of what quitting education will mean over the course of their life. Some like Si will land on their feet, but Si is in the minority. At least at 16 the kid who has no real academic future is grown up enough and should have the base skills required to learn a trade.

I think the alternative to kids not being academic is to give them access to other subjects, like trade skills etc. In NZ you can spend half of your classes doing woodwork or something like that. It may not lead you to a glorious future, but it's better than packing fruit into a box.

So out of curiosity then:
How do you feel about keeping kids in school but subjecting those that misbehave to the switch?

I'm not a fan.

The best punishment I heard of was when the kids were made to clean up the school and other public buildings in their free time. It happened to me a couple of times and the buzz of being a badass wears off very quickly when you're digging up weeds every lunchtime.

I was raised on spankings.

Whereas I've never received one.

Yes, and you're a model little girl, what with all of the sneaking around you did earlier in the year to use the computer after you'd been expressly told not to do so.

I think the alternative to kids not being academic is to give them access to other subjects, like trade skills etc. In NZ you can spend half of your classes doing woodwork or something like that. It may not lead you to a glorious future, but it's better than packing fruit into a box.

I don't agree with Tru that the school systems are designed to feed more people into the Great Corporate Machine.

However, I do believe that the US public school system is designed to teach to a set of standardized tests.  The pass/fail rate on those tests determines funding for the schools, and so it becomes the carrot which all publicly-funded scholastic administrations attempt to get for themselves.

If these institutions were actually interested in the education of the burdgeoning members of our society, then they could take the approach mentioned in the quote above.  However, organizationally, they're more interested in staying funded.

My old high school actually used to have a huge portion of it devoted to trade craft. It was the only school like it in the state and non-academic kids used to drive in from all over the place to go to the auto-repair classes, woodworking and architectural design classes, dental hygienist classes, etc. Problem kids from the normal part of the high school often would disappear for a few months until we'd suddenly notice that they'd been shifted over to the trade school. I think it worked well.

This isn't really a feasible model for kids younger than 13, though. Short of physically punishing the younger children (which like tort reform is essentially impossible due to the heavy involvement of vulture-like lawyers in everything we do), what's the solution then? Is our best bet really to suspend their education by holding them in academics-free playpens until they calm down? Aside from awakening their parents to the issues their child has, what is the harm in sending these kids home if they are too unmanageable? Would caning them and then sending them back to the class damage their chances at success? How?
(Note: these questions are genuine, not prejudged and rhetorical)

Man, In School Suspension sucks!

You still have to get up early and go to fucking school, then you have to sit at a desk all day long and you're supposed to do homework and shit. And you're not allowed to talk.

It's a pretty miserable way to have to spend your day.

I just don't get in school suspensions.
Where's the punishment?
Getting up early to go to school is the same whether you're in disgrace or a model student. Same thing goes for sitting at a desk and doing (home)work.
Presumably it's the failure to have done these things that have landed you in trouble so what's to stop you from simply failing to do them again?
Is the suspension monitor simply a more forceful person? Is the punishment just the loss of speaking privileges?
I had an in-school suspension once and while it was terrifically boring it wasn't really much of a punishment. Heck the kids who were earned suspensions used to explain as much to the teachers as a way to diminish them in all their spluttering red-facedness. Was it just an act then? Do these kids regret the fact that they're not learning about chlorophyll or whatever? Or is the punishment really shame (i.e. conspicuous segregation from the class and the publicness of the fact that the child is in trouble)?

I guess the thing I like about older punishments (physical, dunce cap, etc) is that the punishment of public shaming is accomplished without the incidental loss of academic education. The other thing is that I think the psychological dimensions of the punishment are reduced in physical punishment. The class is your ally if you are caned. They feel the blows too. With the punishment over the child can return to the group rather than the modern technique of declaring the child unfit for mixing with his peers. Somehow the physical act of punishment diminishes the shame of it in my eyes and increases my sympathy with the delinquent child (in my mind the victim). I feel like punishments designed to segregate and shame do an insidious kind of harm and they are mainly adopted for the benefit of the teachers without regard for the child.

Also I think as a society we're too worried about things like physical pain, dirt, expiration dates, etc., etc. That's a thread for another time, though.

I was raised on spankings.

Whereas I've never received one.

Yes, and you're a model little girl, what with all of the sneaking around you did earlier in the year to use the computer after you'd been expressly told not to do so.

Its true, another 2 years I'll be dealing meth and working in brothels.
If only my parents had beaten me when I was younger!

What do you say to a desi with two black eyes?

Nothing you haven't already said to her twice!

When I was growing up I was a straight A student until my mom went to jail for being the number one meth producer in Texas.  At that point my dad had a nervous breakdown and didn't give a shit about what my sister and I did.  I was 14-ish and my grades started slipping because no one gave a shit about my education at that point.  I dropped out of school at 17 and got my GED.  I took community college classes for a couple of years, but then moved to SF to do whatever the fuck I wanted.  It was rad but I do wish that I had had someone to tell me the importance of going to college.  My mom never graduated from high school and my dad didn't finish college until he was in his forties.  It has taken me ten years to get my associates degree and it will take another 2-3 to finish my BA.

With all that being said, I believe that a child's future is in the hands of their parents.  If you are a shitty role model then you will have shitty children.  It is really hard for a kid to rise up out of their shit situation at 16 years old to realize how important working hard and getting good grades is.

Instead of beating kids in school why don't they beat parents.  If you are a crappy parent you should have to either pay a fine, be denied food stamps or whatever, or be humiliated in a public forum by being whipped with cat-o-nine tails.

I just don't get in school suspensions.
Where's the punishment?
Getting up early to go to school is the same whether you're in disgrace or a model student. Same thing goes for sitting at a desk and doing (home)work.
Presumably it's the failure to have done these things that have landed you in trouble so what's to stop you from simply failing to do them again?

Exactly. And that's why I quit school when they did it to me. I was being punished for missing too much school by being made to miss more school. Fuck that shit.

I feel like punishments designed to segregate and shame

You mean like a dunce cap?

Also I think as a society we're too worried about things like physical pain, dirt, expiration dates, etc., etc. That's a thread for another time, though.

Agreed.

I feel like punishments designed to segregate and shame

You mean like a dunce cap?
[/quote]

Hey a whipping is shameful for some as well, but no: Note that I wasn't saying "segregate nand shame." I'm using the conjunctive "and" so what I mean is that punishments that both segregate and shame the person are unacceptable. Simple shame itself can be applied softly (as by public infliction of pain that all sympathetic humans must on some level abhor), or harshly (as by removing the dignity in a clinical way and isolating the malefactor in a padded oubliette). Ask prisoners and the majority would rather have a non-brutal beating than enter the SHU. It's the interactions with people that keep prisoners sane and I think it should be the engagement with the classroom activities that would foster the student's education.

I was reading this thread and suddenly realized that I don't give a shit ...

Come back when you have something to say that isn't about yourself then

Note that I wasn't saying "segregate and shame." I'm using the conjunctive "and" so what I mean is that punishments that both segregate and shame the person are unacceptable.

So you don't consider sitting in class being laughed at by your peers a form of segregation?

Somehow the physical act of punishment diminishes the shame of it in my eyes and increases my sympathy with the delinquent child (in my mind the victim). I feel like punishments designed to segregate and shame do an insidious kind of harm and they are mainly adopted for the benefit of the teachers without regard for the child.

I agree with this.  I can remember kids who had serious problems at home, moderate learning disabilities, and other such problems being kicked out of classes.  They were the sort of kids that needed more attention, not to be shuttled off to a remote classroom to be by themselves with no investment from the teachers.  A couple of guys in particular had effectively given up by the time we were in 3rd or 4th grade.


For me, being thrown out of class was both a game and reaffirmed what I believed anyway.

It was a game in that I viewed classes as a battle of wills with the teacher.  I was most frequently guilty of being either defiant or subverting class discussions for my own entertainment.  If I could drive a class off the tracks then get kicked out/forced to call my parents/whatever, I had won.  

I also seldom felt like I belonged among my peers and wanted to be left alone.  Getting thrown out of class accomplished that goal for me.  The teacher basically admitting that I didn't belong in the class reaffirmed my belief that I was different from the rest of 'em and didn't belong.

Also I think as a society we're too worried about things like physical pain, dirt, expiration dates, etc., etc. That's a thread for another time, though.

That would probably be a good thread, though most people here would probably agree on those topics.

Note that I wasn't saying "segregate nand shame." I'm using the conjunctive "and" so what I mean is that punishments that both segregate and shame the person are unacceptable.

So you don't consider sitting in class being laughed at by your peers a form of segregation?

It is. It's just not what I meant.
I agree though that dunce cappery is pretty cruel.

Also I think as a society we're too worried about things like physical pain, dirt, expiration dates, etc., etc. That's a thread for another time, though.

That would probably be a good thread, though most people here would probably agree on those topics.

I had a long argument about this with my sister once. Then we hung up and I went to take a shower where I discovered that the shampoo bottle had an expiration date. I was compelled to call her back then and there to add the capstone to my perfect argument. My sister was not amused.

Instead of beating kids in school why don't they beat parents. 

Sasha makes a great point, it is hard to break the cycle of bad parenting however.

I have my current lifestyle solely because my Father encouraged me to stick at Japanese, which was by far my worst subject. I even had to repeat a year of it in High School. I'm weak at languages and arts and strong at math and science. I do regret not paying more attention to commerce and economics as a kid, that's the downside of growing up in a conservative family of teachers.

A couple of guys in particular had effectively given up by the time we were in 3rd or 4th grade.

And this in general is one of the biggest problems with every school system I've been in. You get behind, and if you've shown yourself at any time to be a troublemaker, most teachers would rather you give up completely than put in the extra effort to get you up to speed. I last passed a math exam when I was 11 years old. For years I was convinced that I'm just no good at math, and couldn't do it. Discovering that I was pretty good at language sort of confirmed this in my mind. Yet when presented with a job that required quick, but fairly simple arithmetic, I realized that I'm actually pretty good with numbers. At least certainly a lot better than I'd given myself credit for.

Really good teachers are few and far between, and I think that's pretty sad.

Definitely true. I have a buddy who is a teacher and he says the whole thing is ridiculously political (as in "office politics" political). Seniority confers special privileges regardless of what sort of a teacher you are, and there is an obscene amount of interference from parents trying to grease their doltish children through the pipes of the system irrespective of their ability. Whole thing is a mess. Makes you appreciate the few good teachers all that much more I guess.

you're right there, Mum always said the worst thing about teaching were the parents
Little Johnny is failing maths, it must be the teacher's fault and of course has nothing to do with Johnny not trying to learn the material.


Great school teachers are rare, partly because becoming a teacher is essentially signing away your life to service. You don't do it for the money. There are great "teachers" in most other fields, earning at least double what a school teacher can expect to make.

The cynical answer is that no government officials get rich off of funding education.  If you sign on to deregulation, though, Goldman Sachs will give you tons of campaign donations, paid speaking gigs, and maybe a consulting job someday.  If you sign on to the contract for the latest piece of shit from Lockheed/Grumman/etc., you'll get the same deal.

I'm sure the same is true in every other country.

Oddly enough, I remember reading a  report about multipliers a few months ago (maybe I posted about it here?) and I think education spending had a pretty high one.  Military spending, for all the bluster about how important it is to the economy, has a very low multiplier.

What blows my mind is that the guy who coaches football at the University of Texas at Austin makes $2,910,000 a year and the guy who teaches the kids who might one day be the doctor that saves his life makes $94,000 a year.

That's cuz he makes the school money, despite his salary. He's also poised to win another national title, which also makes money, directly and indirectly. They also should've played for the national title last year, but they got fucked out of their shot by the Sooners.

I don't think it's very hard to coach football.  I could do it.  I like to cuss at people and touch teenaged boys butts.  Done.  Where do I sign?

At the bottom of the 4576 page doc, that you know by heart, outlining the stats and strategies of all the other teams and coaches.

I was reading this thread and suddenly realized that I don't give a shit ...

About time someone said something sensible in this thread.

Really guys. The only thing that's changed in the entire US ed system since 1975 is that they can't hit kids anymore.

Also tuitions are up, salaries are down and ethnic minoritie are more likely to go to higher ed now.

Well, that and a long decline in the standards of a public education.

Maybe we could blame that on getting rid of corporal punishment.  Everyone's kid is a precious flower now who could be the next Albert Einstein if only we're lenient enough.

I was pretty strict and held my children to a much higher standard than the schools. But I never hit them and didn't allow anyone else to either.

Imagine if every country took 10% of its military budget and used it to pay really smart, qualified teachers (and even possibly TA's of some sort, depending on class size) to educate its populace.

I like this, the only thing I would modify is that smartness alone isn't enough. I've had brilliant professors who couldn't teach themselves out of a wet paper bag. Teaching ability involves great interpersonal skills. You have to feed off the students and engage them in different ways depending on the class and depending on the student. Perhaps that's what you meant by qualified. If so I agree completely.

Everyone's kid is a precious flower now who could be the next Albert Einstein if only we're lenient enough.

True. And bad grades or doing drugs shouldn't dissuade anyone. Every one knows that Albert Einstein got bad grades in school...

ethnic minoritie are more likely to go to higher ed now.

Why that is outrageous sir!  Get those coons off of my university's back porch!

Coons? When ra-coons try to get on our back porch, momma just chase them off with a broom.

At the bottom the the 4576 page doc, that you know by heart, outlining the stats and strategies of all the other teams and coaches.

Haha man seriously!

I like this, the only thing I would modify is that smartness alone isn't enough. I've had brilliant professors who couldn't teach themselves out of a wet paper bag. Teaching ability involves great interpersonal skills. You have to feed off the students and engage them in different ways depending on the class and depending on the student. Perhaps that's what you meant by qualified. If so I agree completely.

That's totally what I meant. If teachers were paid a salary that people would actually compete for, we'd soon weed out all the people teaching cuz they think it's an easy gig with nice vacation time, as well as the people who are smart and eager but unfortunately suck at teaching. We'd end up with an almost entirely good batch of people shaping the next generation's minds.

I was reading this thread and suddenly realized that I don't give a shit ...

About time someone said something sensible in this thread.

Why, thank you, man!
So, how's your day going today?

I will have to sit back and read this thread sometime - I love reading debates on education, but I am split on debating it. I feel like I talk till I'm blue in the face. The system is outdated. Programs coddle kids now to make up for the parents who remember a time of beating (Zooms, Philly Archdioceses had a beating policy into 1990/1991 to my memory. But parents had to sign a waiver saying beating was OK). Textbooks need changing, curriculum needs updating, badly. Funding is not properly allocated to poorer districts. The fucking No Child Left Behind BS only makes schools care about Terra Nova scores, not learning and achieving. Sports vs Arts. Nothing ever changes. it is nearly impossible to become a teacher in some states, while morons easily slip in elsewhere and you as a teacher spend a lifetime in school for yourself just to keep up the required credits, draining your wallet and meeting unreachable requirements for little pay and shit healthcare. It's a raw deal.

teaches the kids who might one day be the doctor that saves his life makes $94,000 a year

Sasha, I'm not sure if I read this correctly, as I'm in a hurry, but the average teacher starts around 27K and will cap at 45K/year unless you are lucky to land in a decent district that pays well, which are rare and very hard to get into. But this is on the East Coast, I'm told the West can be different.

Yeah, I read that and blinked a couple of times too.

Setting the pay scale for teachers is hard. On one hand, teaching is a lifetime of service, and without quality education a country's economy heads south fast. On the other, once you're a teacher it's possible to coast on what you know for the next 40 years without having to worry about where your next paycheck will come from.

So why not pay 'em more and expect more?

because there are limits to what they can do with their employees. This is why private schools pay teachers more, because they're expected to deliver academic results and can be dismissed for failing to meet targets. My parents are both high school teachers, and while they do their best for their kids they don't have to.

Senior Teachers in QLD now get 74k a year. Dpt Heads can get up to about 100k

http://www.qtu.asn.au/salary_scales_teachersawardstate_ca2006_asat1july_2009.pdf

What blows my mind is that the guy who coaches football at the University of Texas at Austin makes $2,910,000 a year and the guy who teaches the kids who might one day be the doctor that saves his life makes $94,000 a year.

supporting evidence:
http://www.bls.gov/OCO/ocos066.htm#earnings

By rank, the average was $98,974 for professors, $69,911 for associate professors, $58,662 for assistant professors, $42,609 for instructors, and $48,289 for lecturers. Faculty in 4-year institutions earn higher salaries, on average, than do those in 2-year schools. In 2006-07, faculty salaries averaged $84,249 in private independent institutions, $71,362 in public institutions, and $66,118 in religiously affiliated private colleges and universities.

Mac Brown is making more than $2.9 million this year... now it's $5.1 to coach football at The University of Texas at Austin.

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/longhorns/entries/2009/08/05/brown_will_make.html

Nick, I think education works very differently here.
In most states teachers are required to gain X amount of post college credits dealing with their subject each year in order to keep teaching. You often are required to pay for these college credits out of pocket and you are rarely reimbursed the full amount (hence the true unfairness in the salaries). While it was the case some time ago that you could get a bachelors or an equivalent and coast on that knowledge for the rest of your career, most states now require this extra learning, plus a masters or a solid start on obtaining a masters.

Also, Private Schools will often pay their teachers considerably less than a public district. The reason is income tax based government funding. However things like Charter schools pay somewhere in between the two.
The reason people flock to private schools is because they are looking for that distinctive listing on their resume, the kids are usually calm (generally) and you are rarely denied materials for your classroom (because of tuition).

Canaan is really a rich public school district.

As for "evidence" -  I dont know if 13 was talking about professors, but I assumed she was talking about primary and secondary educators (as she did mention "kids") of which do not make those salaries and the salaries are entirely based on district, but overall are between 27K and 45K in the east coast urban areas.

Edited: Upon checking the same website:

Median annual earnings of kindergarten, elementary, middle, and secondary school teachers ranged from $43,580 to $48,690 in May 2006; the lowest 10 percent earned $28,590 to $33,070; the top 10 percent earned $67,490 to $76,100. Median earnings for preschool teachers were $22,680.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos069.htm#earnings

Mac Brown is making more than $2.9 million this year... now it's $5.1 to coach undefeated football at The University of Texas at Austin.

When I said "The University of Texas at Austin" and kids, I just thought people would assume I meant college aged individuals generally between the ages of 18-22.

I dont really associate 18-22 with "kids" but regardless, I haven't read the whole thread (working on that now, though thinking I want to give that up and try to hit it since detroit just got home) sorry for the unnecessary salary confusion thread....now deferring

and without quality education a country's economy heads south fast.

Has not a single iota of impact on the economy. There is not one single shred of evidence that mandatory schooling and arbitrary tests taken by the state have any impact on "the economy" as defined by a supposed quality of living or on the ability of a nation to compete globally. Schooling in America serves only one main purpose, to produce minimally functional slaves for the workplace. And secondarily to produce "America" drones.

what's the alternative?

Religion.

I was pretty strict and held my children to a much higher standard than the schools upside down in a dunktank.

I'm curious if Tru has any decent follow up to his statement, or if he was simply being a fuckwit

Education is now available to more people worldwide than it has ever been. If it's designed to prepare people for jobs then that's not a government conspiracy, it's just a natural progression from a trade-based society that has existed for thousands of years.

I do think that teaching to standardized will lead to a decline in the quality of education.

your system of having funding available on the base of some set of test results is bizarre.

your system of having funding available on the base of some set of test results is bizarre.

How else would you recommend even coming close to correctly distributing funds when, as a whole, you cannot provide enough funds to make everyone happy?

It is beyond bizarre. Also, students call bullshit on tests like terra nova, and purposely dole out poor results, which hurt the school in regards to funding... and who can blame them? I hated taking those tests. they were called "CAT" then.

your system of having funding available on the base of some set of test results is bizarre.

How else would you recommend even coming close to correctly distributing funds when, as a whole, you cannot provide enough funds to make everyone happy?

How about maintaining each school to an equal standard, based on student numbers.

When minorities make more money than white people then they will have better schools.

It is beyond bizarre. Also, students call bullshit on tests like terra nova, and purposely dole out poor results, which hurt the school in regards to funding... and who can blame them? I hated taking those tests. they were called "CAT" then.

It's called FCAT here, and it's still bullshit ...

Contrary to popular belief. I actually care deeply about the needs of ginger people. Or "Persons of hair colour challengement", as I call it.

I propose that they are all located in particular regions of major cities. Because its important for them to feel safe.And Ginger-phobes are BANNED from calling them ginger ghettos.

Infact I like them so much, we could build new towns for them, at no cost to them. With free rail transport to, and .. Well and we could welcome them with nice ermm.. showers.

Ginger people we feel your pain. We CARE. So please vote for me - the "Gingers. The Final Solution Party".

Ginger ghettos... hahaha.

Yes, vote CARTMAN ...

(You are aware that Dylan'd win on this platform, right?)

Make sure this doesn't get out to the flame haired fiends, but I wonder how many gingers could be eliminated  in an hour?

I'm thinking of setting a trap for 50 or so thousand of them.
With a Mick Hucknell concert as the bait..

Ohhh I'm  a genius...This can never fail.

I'm curious if Tru has any decent follow up to his statement, or if he was simply being a fuckwit

Education is now available to more people worldwide than it has ever been. If it's designed to prepare people for jobs then that's not a government conspiracy, it's just a natural progression from a trade-based society that has existed for thousands of years.

I was being a fuckwit. But my gripe is the mandatory aspect. If the state is forcing something on you the natural tendency is to rebel against it. I'm not putting down education and if not mandatory people would gladly flock to whatever schooling they could get and would do a hell of a lot better at learning the material BECAUSE they would WANT to learn it. And with the economy it doesn't really make any difference if a person has completed mandatory schooling or not.  Most I would say of the majority remain morons even after completion of mandatory schooling. Most people never work in their major either so schooling has become for many not a quest for knowledge at all but a quest for a piece of paper that may open doors for you that are closed to those less fortunate perhaps but not due to the graduate being any smarter or better qualified to take a position in a field in which they have never studied.

I hated taking those tests. they were called "CAT" then.

Hah oh man I loved those. No school for days, and instead a bullshit-easy test. I still have my old scores back in a folder at home.

It's called FCAT here, and it's still bullshit ...

The "C" in CAT stood for "California" as far as I understood it. I wonder what "FC" stands for.

and if not mandatory people would gladly flock to whatever schooling they could get and would do a hell of a lot better at learning the material BECAUSE they would WANT to learn it.

Bullshit.

Florida's Comprehensive Assessment Test
http://fcat.fldoe.org/

I'm curious if Tru has any decent follow up to his statement, or if he was simply being a fuckwit

Education is now available to more people worldwide than it has ever been. If it's designed to prepare people for jobs then that's not a government conspiracy, it's just a natural progression from a trade-based society that has existed for thousands of years.

Most people never work in their major either so schooling has become for many not a quest for knowledge at all but a quest for a piece of paper that may open doors for you that are closed to those less fortunate perhaps but not due to the graduate being any smarter or better qualified to take a position in a field in which they have never studied.

Yet this proves that you have the ability to focus and learn a subject to a high level.

I think the US system of a year of general ed at the start of uni is a waste of time and rips off students. I completed my (3yr) BA in 2 1/2 years by doing some summer schooling and got the fuck on with it.

and if not mandatory people would gladly flock to whatever schooling they could get and would do a hell of a lot better at learning the material BECAUSE they would WANT to learn it.

Bullshit.

Ya think? I think you are full of shit here. Perhaps a segment of society would prefer remaining stupid. But the job market would require certain minimal qualities and people would soon come to understand that with greater education comes greater employment opportunities. But with the mandatory system currently in place this will never happen. I suppose schooling might be delayed for some people but what difference would that make except for assuring for those people that it really was their choice.

When funding is based on test scores and that funding comes from the general population by force even from people like me who haven't had a kid in the system for 20 or more years but we have to keep paying anyway to help prop up the education system and when it has been proven that teachers wages have no bearing at all on the quality of schooling or the results of such schooling as compared globally. Then what the fuck am I supposed to believe? That higher teacher wages create smarter or better educated students ? That allocating ever greater funds from the tax base to schooling administrators is somehow helping education, fuck it! Give me a fucking break.

It might seem strange but there are people who believe in educating people and historically they have provided this service with little compensation. As far as I am concerned teachers across the board should only be paid half what they currently receive. Then we would see the leaches drop off.
And don't even fucking even think that no one would want the job.

But only those people dedicated to it would apply.

In England

State schools are a complete joke, in that they are designed to develop subservient gimps.
They are shit at teaching kids to get thro exams or study. Its basically about keeping em off the streets.
The teachers hate the idea of kids being more successful than them.

Private schools also develop yes men and complete twats. And because it costs about 30k a year, the biggest morons imaginable pass exams.Then conspire together to get good jobs, even tho the jobs are way beyond their ability.

But education's really important for everyone in Britain.Tony Bliar said so...

In England

... schools ... develop subservient gimps ... yes men and complete twats....

See, the problem is that the schools have to teach English dudes.

It might seem strange but there are people who believe in educating people and historically they have provided this service with little compensation. As far as I am concerned teachers across the board should only be paid half what they currently receive. Then we would see the leaches drop off.
And don't even fucking even think that no one would want the job.

But only those people dedicated to it would apply.

Those people dedicated to it wouldn't be able to apply because getting by, in a recession, on such a low salary would be pretty damn hard.

IMO, if you want good teachers, increase the salary and the quality of the training. We need more trained teachers so there is a bigger choice of them.
It would mean the schools can actually fire the crappy teachers instead of just having to employ them because there is no other option.


EDIT: I just thought of something else. We dont want dedicated people, we want good teachers.  Even the most enthusiastic can be utter shit at their job.

In England

State schools are a complete joke, in that they are designed to develop subservient gimps.
They are shit at teaching kids to get thro exams or study. Its basically about keeping em off the streets.
The teachers hate the idea of kids being more successful than them.

Private schools also develop yes men and complete twats. And because it costs about 30k a year, the biggest morons imaginable pass exams.Then conspire together to get good jobs, even tho the jobs are way beyond their ability.

But education's really important for everyone in Britain.Tony Bliar said so...

Everytime this topic comes up we disagree.
Basically Hertfordshire pwns.

But btw, 30K a year? the one nearby me costs 3k per term, 9k a year and thats a boarding school, meals included.

yeah we do have this disagr every time LOL

My school was one of the better state schools in a pretty shit area.So funding was shit, expectation was too.
Teachers ranged from ok to utterly abysmal - or they fucked off never to be replaced during the middle of our A levels. And the school REFUSED to replace them!

From people I spoke to, places like Berks, Surrey, Herts etc do seem to have better state schools, but still a fair way off private ones.

Eton is 28k a year, plus extras - which can push it up to 50 odd k Im told. And they get Downs Syndrome victims to Oxford and Cambrdige.

You make a good pt that shit teachers are never sacked. We just locked them in cupboards.
(Or was it the pottery kiln....?)

Well I heard a story about a school where they had a supply teacher who was australian. He just got so pissed off with the class he was dealing with, he left, locked them in the classroom, grabbed all the keys to the door he could find (he took all but the caretakers one) and got on a plane back to Australia. He didnt say a word to anyone about it, just left.

Course supply teachers get so shit on its unbelievable.

I dont remember the supply teachers actually being our shittest ones.
Some seemed to lack confidence - they were in an alien environment and knew the job was temp.

I dont think its fair on kids studying for exams or for the supply teacher when they have to pick up the reins half way thro a year.

The ancient phrase "schooldays the best days of your life" Who the fuck said that?Some bellend with a caning and uniform fetish?

IMO, if you want good teachers, increase the salary and the quality of the training. We need more trained teachers so there is a bigger choice of them.
It would mean the schools can actually fire the crappy teachers instead of just having to employ them because there is no other option.

There's a lot of interoffice-style politics involved in the US at least. You get tenured and suddenly start acting crappy, or you have more seniority and this entitles you to be crappier something like that. I'm not sure exactly what all the wrinkles are, but one of my friends is constantly telling me this. He was in risk of getting laid off a few years back because there was a lot of supply all of a sudden. He was pissed because he's one of their best but also one of their youngest teachers. So yeah... more tolerably good teachers doesn't necessarily bring us all the way to the finish line.

As far as I am concerned teachers across the board should only be paid half what they currently receive. Then we would see the leaches drop off.
And don't even fucking even think that no one would want the job.

But only those people dedicated to it would apply.

Dude, that's the stupidest thing I've heard all day. "Dedicated" people wouldn't apply, people who are too stupid to get better paying jobs would apply.

Those people dedicated to it wouldn't be able to apply because getting by, in a recession, on such a low salary would be pretty damn hard.

IMO, if you want good teachers, increase the salary and the quality of the training. We need more trained teachers so there is a bigger choice of them.
It would mean the schools can actually fire the crappy teachers instead of just having to employ them because there is no other option.


EDIT: I just thought of something else. We dont want dedicated people, we want good teachers.  Even the most enthusiastic can be utter shit at their job.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Who said I had to drive it? It's a work of art for me to masturbate over...

* nods

I think the point was, its an indicator of a shit country if the education of ability(or otherwise) is solely down to how rich your mummy and daddy are.

You mean like GB where you take mummy and daddy's money and go to a good school and you become a surgeon, a solicitor or get a business degree so you can manage mummy and daddy's money and eventually become a politician, and if you come from middle to lower class you take your public uni degree and work in the manufacturing or service industry? Is this the comparison you're throwing out to us? Because I totally get your point, asshat.

Yes thats basically my pt, asshat.
I think Britain's worse than America by quite a long way.But America has elements of bullshit eg Bush becoming President because his daddy was.
Strangely, Greece has the same problem, and its on the verge of bankruptcy.

And Britain isn't?

I never knew you were an equal opportunity hater. Mad props my Russian brother...

IMO, if you want good teachers, increase the salary and the quality of the training. We need more trained teachers so there is a bigger choice of them.
It would mean the schools can actually fire the crappy teachers instead of just having to employ them because there is no other option.

There's a lot of interoffice-style politics involved in the US at least. You get tenured and suddenly start acting crappy, or you have more seniority and this entitles you to be crappier something like that. I'm not sure exactly what all the wrinkles are, but one of my friends is constantly telling me this. He was in risk of getting laid off a few years back because there was a lot of supply all of a sudden. He was pissed because he's one of their best but also one of their youngest teachers. So yeah... more tolerably good teachers doesn't necessarily bring us all the way to the finish line.

There's not much you can do about that from the head office.
At least this way schools that need it would be able to sack the bad teachers.

Here at least we have a lot of bad teachers because of lack of supply. It's why the government is trying to recruit more and make it sound like a good job.

I'll go and teach Yankee english to a bunch of Queens.

I've never understood the TV  adverts for teaching.

Maybe they should go look this :-

Not very clever but not that thick either?Like long holidays and early finishes?
Want to start on 22k, which is more than the call centre you've been working in since graduation.
The caning's been banned.But  you can still shout at 11 to 18 year olds for not wearing uniforms.

(switches to wouldbe teacher with terrible dress sense pondering his outlook)
Maybe you can spend the salary increase on... Or trade  coursework marks for ...

Cuts to "Teaching, its fairly shit but the pay's better than what a lazy pervert would get in other jobs".

Methinks someone's parents may be entitled to a school fees refund under the Trades Description Act...

Heh. Not quite.

I've never understood the TV  adverts for teaching.

Maybe they should go look this :-

No one every cared for me.
And now I've grown up to hate teachers, school, and learning in general.
It fills me with such rage that,
sometimes,
I have to rant and rave about TV commericals on the internet.
When I don't even understand why people would want to teach, or learn!

If you or someone you love has felt anxiety over their lack of an education, consider being a teacher.
For the world, if not for them.
*rifle blast, fade to black*

Hahaha brilliant!

come between Ian and a stall selling meats on sticks and you will know the true meaning of danger

Methinks Taiko is a teacher...and not an advertising guru.

FTR, I did actually get an education.Law school.School grades were good enough for Oxbridge.
But education in Britain is still shit.

it matches your economy then

True.But shitness is relative.

I wouldnt fuck Katie Price at gunpoint. But if the only other option was Hillary Clinton's cock..

come between Ian and a stall selling meats on sticks and you will know the true meaning of danger

Because he might run you over heading for the booth, or because it might be one of those old-time cartoon situations where he suddenly sees you as meat on a stick?

it matches your economy then

CT - economies are for wimps.

Much more fun in places where everything is bartered for Kalashnikovs, coca, and lapdancers.
No strikes, no unemployment and even the gravediggers get generous bonuses.

come between Ian and a stall selling meats on sticks and you will know the true meaning of danger

Because he might run you over heading for the booth, or because it might be one of those old-time cartoon situations where he suddenly sees you as meat on a stick?

Either apply.

Methinks Taiko is a teacher...and not an advertising guru.

Shows what you know.

HAH.  It's a joke AND an insult!

Insults make me horny.
Esp if the insulter's dressed as a schoolteacher.

taiko is an insulting japanese schoolgirl teacher

In fat girl pants...

taiko is an insulting japanese schoolgirl teacher, in fat girl pants with slightly curly hair

Sounds like a Jewish woman...

taiko doesn't sleep with jewish women

This reminds me of the Jew who moved to Tokyo to do enjo kosai.
He said
"Fuck off, you're not having ALL my sweets".

Why zoomie likes big girls,

Goddam straight.

Also they'll keep you warm in a blizzard for at least 8 days even if you don't feed 'em.

Also they'll keep you warm in a blizzard for at least 8 days even if you don't feed 'em.

Yes but you don't have to gut them, ya big Corellian...

Nope; still don't give a fuck about this thread ...

www.analsexfistingpain.com

Ok, now I'm into this thread ...