Growing up in my household, dinner discussions between Mum and Dad were about how so-and-so had dropped out and was now working at the factory or doing drugs. Or that so-and-so had pulled it together and got an apprenticeship or made it into college, and that shaped my thinking. I believe kids under 16 don't have a real-world picture of what quitting education will mean over the course of their life. Some like Si will land on their feet, but Si is in the minority. At least at 16 the kid who has no real academic future is grown up enough and should have the base skills required to learn a trade.

I think the alternative to kids not being academic is to give them access to other subjects, like trade skills etc. In NZ you can spend half of your classes doing woodwork or something like that. It may not lead you to a glorious future, but it's better than packing fruit into a box.

So out of curiosity then:
How do you feel about keeping kids in school but subjecting those that misbehave to the switch?

I'm not a fan.

The best punishment I heard of was when the kids were made to clean up the school and other public buildings in their free time. It happened to me a couple of times and the buzz of being a badass wears off very quickly when you're digging up weeds every lunchtime.

I was raised on spankings.

Whereas I've never received one.

Yes, and you're a model little girl, what with all of the sneaking around you did earlier in the year to use the computer after you'd been expressly told not to do so.

I think the alternative to kids not being academic is to give them access to other subjects, like trade skills etc. In NZ you can spend half of your classes doing woodwork or something like that. It may not lead you to a glorious future, but it's better than packing fruit into a box.

I don't agree with Tru that the school systems are designed to feed more people into the Great Corporate Machine.

However, I do believe that the US public school system is designed to teach to a set of standardized tests.  The pass/fail rate on those tests determines funding for the schools, and so it becomes the carrot which all publicly-funded scholastic administrations attempt to get for themselves.

If these institutions were actually interested in the education of the burdgeoning members of our society, then they could take the approach mentioned in the quote above.  However, organizationally, they're more interested in staying funded.

My old high school actually used to have a huge portion of it devoted to trade craft. It was the only school like it in the state and non-academic kids used to drive in from all over the place to go to the auto-repair classes, woodworking and architectural design classes, dental hygienist classes, etc. Problem kids from the normal part of the high school often would disappear for a few months until we'd suddenly notice that they'd been shifted over to the trade school. I think it worked well.

This isn't really a feasible model for kids younger than 13, though. Short of physically punishing the younger children (which like tort reform is essentially impossible due to the heavy involvement of vulture-like lawyers in everything we do), what's the solution then? Is our best bet really to suspend their education by holding them in academics-free playpens until they calm down? Aside from awakening their parents to the issues their child has, what is the harm in sending these kids home if they are too unmanageable? Would caning them and then sending them back to the class damage their chances at success? How?
(Note: these questions are genuine, not prejudged and rhetorical)

Man, In School Suspension sucks!

You still have to get up early and go to fucking school, then you have to sit at a desk all day long and you're supposed to do homework and shit. And you're not allowed to talk.

It's a pretty miserable way to have to spend your day.

I just don't get in school suspensions.
Where's the punishment?
Getting up early to go to school is the same whether you're in disgrace or a model student. Same thing goes for sitting at a desk and doing (home)work.
Presumably it's the failure to have done these things that have landed you in trouble so what's to stop you from simply failing to do them again?
Is the suspension monitor simply a more forceful person? Is the punishment just the loss of speaking privileges?
I had an in-school suspension once and while it was terrifically boring it wasn't really much of a punishment. Heck the kids who were earned suspensions used to explain as much to the teachers as a way to diminish them in all their spluttering red-facedness. Was it just an act then? Do these kids regret the fact that they're not learning about chlorophyll or whatever? Or is the punishment really shame (i.e. conspicuous segregation from the class and the publicness of the fact that the child is in trouble)?

I guess the thing I like about older punishments (physical, dunce cap, etc) is that the punishment of public shaming is accomplished without the incidental loss of academic education. The other thing is that I think the psychological dimensions of the punishment are reduced in physical punishment. The class is your ally if you are caned. They feel the blows too. With the punishment over the child can return to the group rather than the modern technique of declaring the child unfit for mixing with his peers. Somehow the physical act of punishment diminishes the shame of it in my eyes and increases my sympathy with the delinquent child (in my mind the victim). I feel like punishments designed to segregate and shame do an insidious kind of harm and they are mainly adopted for the benefit of the teachers without regard for the child.

Also I think as a society we're too worried about things like physical pain, dirt, expiration dates, etc., etc. That's a thread for another time, though.

I was raised on spankings.

Whereas I've never received one.

Yes, and you're a model little girl, what with all of the sneaking around you did earlier in the year to use the computer after you'd been expressly told not to do so.

Its true, another 2 years I'll be dealing meth and working in brothels.
If only my parents had beaten me when I was younger!

What do you say to a desi with two black eyes?

Nothing you haven't already said to her twice!

When I was growing up I was a straight A student until my mom went to jail for being the number one meth producer in Texas.  At that point my dad had a nervous breakdown and didn't give a shit about what my sister and I did.  I was 14-ish and my grades started slipping because no one gave a shit about my education at that point.  I dropped out of school at 17 and got my GED.  I took community college classes for a couple of years, but then moved to SF to do whatever the fuck I wanted.  It was rad but I do wish that I had had someone to tell me the importance of going to college.  My mom never graduated from high school and my dad didn't finish college until he was in his forties.  It has taken me ten years to get my associates degree and it will take another 2-3 to finish my BA.

With all that being said, I believe that a child's future is in the hands of their parents.  If you are a shitty role model then you will have shitty children.  It is really hard for a kid to rise up out of their shit situation at 16 years old to realize how important working hard and getting good grades is.

Instead of beating kids in school why don't they beat parents.  If you are a crappy parent you should have to either pay a fine, be denied food stamps or whatever, or be humiliated in a public forum by being whipped with cat-o-nine tails.

I just don't get in school suspensions.
Where's the punishment?
Getting up early to go to school is the same whether you're in disgrace or a model student. Same thing goes for sitting at a desk and doing (home)work.
Presumably it's the failure to have done these things that have landed you in trouble so what's to stop you from simply failing to do them again?

Exactly. And that's why I quit school when they did it to me. I was being punished for missing too much school by being made to miss more school. Fuck that shit.

I feel like punishments designed to segregate and shame

You mean like a dunce cap?

Also I think as a society we're too worried about things like physical pain, dirt, expiration dates, etc., etc. That's a thread for another time, though.

Agreed.

I feel like punishments designed to segregate and shame

You mean like a dunce cap?
[/quote]

Hey a whipping is shameful for some as well, but no: Note that I wasn't saying "segregate nand shame." I'm using the conjunctive "and" so what I mean is that punishments that both segregate and shame the person are unacceptable. Simple shame itself can be applied softly (as by public infliction of pain that all sympathetic humans must on some level abhor), or harshly (as by removing the dignity in a clinical way and isolating the malefactor in a padded oubliette). Ask prisoners and the majority would rather have a non-brutal beating than enter the SHU. It's the interactions with people that keep prisoners sane and I think it should be the engagement with the classroom activities that would foster the student's education.

I was reading this thread and suddenly realized that I don't give a shit ...

Come back when you have something to say that isn't about yourself then

Note that I wasn't saying "segregate and shame." I'm using the conjunctive "and" so what I mean is that punishments that both segregate and shame the person are unacceptable.

So you don't consider sitting in class being laughed at by your peers a form of segregation?

Somehow the physical act of punishment diminishes the shame of it in my eyes and increases my sympathy with the delinquent child (in my mind the victim). I feel like punishments designed to segregate and shame do an insidious kind of harm and they are mainly adopted for the benefit of the teachers without regard for the child.

I agree with this.  I can remember kids who had serious problems at home, moderate learning disabilities, and other such problems being kicked out of classes.  They were the sort of kids that needed more attention, not to be shuttled off to a remote classroom to be by themselves with no investment from the teachers.  A couple of guys in particular had effectively given up by the time we were in 3rd or 4th grade.


For me, being thrown out of class was both a game and reaffirmed what I believed anyway.

It was a game in that I viewed classes as a battle of wills with the teacher.  I was most frequently guilty of being either defiant or subverting class discussions for my own entertainment.  If I could drive a class off the tracks then get kicked out/forced to call my parents/whatever, I had won.  

I also seldom felt like I belonged among my peers and wanted to be left alone.  Getting thrown out of class accomplished that goal for me.  The teacher basically admitting that I didn't belong in the class reaffirmed my belief that I was different from the rest of 'em and didn't belong.

Also I think as a society we're too worried about things like physical pain, dirt, expiration dates, etc., etc. That's a thread for another time, though.

That would probably be a good thread, though most people here would probably agree on those topics.

Note that I wasn't saying "segregate nand shame." I'm using the conjunctive "and" so what I mean is that punishments that both segregate and shame the person are unacceptable.

So you don't consider sitting in class being laughed at by your peers a form of segregation?

It is. It's just not what I meant.
I agree though that dunce cappery is pretty cruel.

Also I think as a society we're too worried about things like physical pain, dirt, expiration dates, etc., etc. That's a thread for another time, though.

That would probably be a good thread, though most people here would probably agree on those topics.

I had a long argument about this with my sister once. Then we hung up and I went to take a shower where I discovered that the shampoo bottle had an expiration date. I was compelled to call her back then and there to add the capstone to my perfect argument. My sister was not amused.

Instead of beating kids in school why don't they beat parents. 

Sasha makes a great point, it is hard to break the cycle of bad parenting however.

I have my current lifestyle solely because my Father encouraged me to stick at Japanese, which was by far my worst subject. I even had to repeat a year of it in High School. I'm weak at languages and arts and strong at math and science. I do regret not paying more attention to commerce and economics as a kid, that's the downside of growing up in a conservative family of teachers.

A couple of guys in particular had effectively given up by the time we were in 3rd or 4th grade.

And this in general is one of the biggest problems with every school system I've been in. You get behind, and if you've shown yourself at any time to be a troublemaker, most teachers would rather you give up completely than put in the extra effort to get you up to speed. I last passed a math exam when I was 11 years old. For years I was convinced that I'm just no good at math, and couldn't do it. Discovering that I was pretty good at language sort of confirmed this in my mind. Yet when presented with a job that required quick, but fairly simple arithmetic, I realized that I'm actually pretty good with numbers. At least certainly a lot better than I'd given myself credit for.

Really good teachers are few and far between, and I think that's pretty sad.

Definitely true. I have a buddy who is a teacher and he says the whole thing is ridiculously political (as in "office politics" political). Seniority confers special privileges regardless of what sort of a teacher you are, and there is an obscene amount of interference from parents trying to grease their doltish children through the pipes of the system irrespective of their ability. Whole thing is a mess. Makes you appreciate the few good teachers all that much more I guess.

you're right there, Mum always said the worst thing about teaching were the parents
Little Johnny is failing maths, it must be the teacher's fault and of course has nothing to do with Johnny not trying to learn the material.


Great school teachers are rare, partly because becoming a teacher is essentially signing away your life to service. You don't do it for the money. There are great "teachers" in most other fields, earning at least double what a school teacher can expect to make.

The cynical answer is that no government officials get rich off of funding education.  If you sign on to deregulation, though, Goldman Sachs will give you tons of campaign donations, paid speaking gigs, and maybe a consulting job someday.  If you sign on to the contract for the latest piece of shit from Lockheed/Grumman/etc., you'll get the same deal.

I'm sure the same is true in every other country.

Oddly enough, I remember reading a  report about multipliers a few months ago (maybe I posted about it here?) and I think education spending had a pretty high one.  Military spending, for all the bluster about how important it is to the economy, has a very low multiplier.

What blows my mind is that the guy who coaches football at the University of Texas at Austin makes $2,910,000 a year and the guy who teaches the kids who might one day be the doctor that saves his life makes $94,000 a year.

That's cuz he makes the school money, despite his salary. He's also poised to win another national title, which also makes money, directly and indirectly. They also should've played for the national title last year, but they got fucked out of their shot by the Sooners.

I don't think it's very hard to coach football.  I could do it.  I like to cuss at people and touch teenaged boys butts.  Done.  Where do I sign?

At the bottom of the 4576 page doc, that you know by heart, outlining the stats and strategies of all the other teams and coaches.

I was reading this thread and suddenly realized that I don't give a shit ...

About time someone said something sensible in this thread.

Really guys. The only thing that's changed in the entire US ed system since 1975 is that they can't hit kids anymore.

Also tuitions are up, salaries are down and ethnic minoritie are more likely to go to higher ed now.