this

I've been trying to figure out why Americans are voting against fixing the biggest blight on their society.

Next up, why Japan's population will halve over the next 40 years while they vote against opening up immigration

Psh. i could have told you all that. You didn't need to hear it from a Big Black Cock...

I always feel like a bit of a homer when I say this shit but the beeb is pretty good compared to most of its alternatives.

For news content, I avoid the hell out of the commercial TV networks... We get the PBS News Hour show here, and it is excellent. I had the pleasure of listening to NPR at Jenn's place in October, and found it the complete opposite of any of the commercial news radio stations I heard in the US.

Good stuff is out there, unfortunately, most people arent interested. They want car crashes and sensationalist bullshit instead of any substance.

In his book The Political Brain, psychologist Drew Westen, an exasperated Democrat, tried to show why the Right often wins the argument even when the Left is confident that it has the facts on its side.

He uses the following exchange from the first presidential debate between Al Gore and George Bush in 2000 to illustrate the perils of trying to explain to voters what will make them better off:

Gore: "Under the governor's plan, if you kept the same fee for service that you have now under Medicare, your premiums would go up by between 18% and 47%, and that is the study of the Congressional plan that he's modelled his proposal on by the Medicare actuaries."

Bush: "Look, this is a man who has great numbers. He talks about numbers.

"I'm beginning to think not only did he invent the internet, but he invented the calculator. It's fuzzy math. It's trying to scare people in the voting booth."

Mr Gore was talking sense and Mr Bush nonsense - but Mr Bush won the debate. With statistics, the voters just hear a patronising policy wonk, and switch off.

Seriously... if Americans worried a little less about their "freedoms" and their supposed infringements and thought about what might actually be best overall, things probably would never have gotten to this point. Or am I talking a whole bunch of socialist crap?

Anecdotal experience on my part: In 2005, I was asked in a bar in Florida about health care in Oz by an friend of Daves. I explained that we have Federally run basic universal health cover, it costs 1.5 cents out of every dollar earned by every person in the country.  The response was "Why the hell cant we do that here?"

Thing is, you could.

SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP YOU COMMIE BASTARD!!!

That's why.

You know what?

Before I say one more word, for OR against Universal Health Care, I think I'll take some time, visit some forums that host folks from countries that HAVE it, and try to find out from those peeps what it would actually be like, compared to what I've got.

I've finally hit the point that I hesitate to believe ANYTHING I read or hear as Reported News, and I honestly don't think that someone from a country that HAS UHC, and is semi-famous (ReadThat: meriting the best of treatment for fear of recriminations) is in a position to give me the bird's eye view that I'll be seeing, should it come to America.

~~  "Hello?  Helpful Hospital?  I'm thus-and-such-and-so-and-so with the BBC, doing an in depth report on UHC.  Could you show me the ropes?"

--  "Sure enough, Mr. Reporter!  We'll let you accompany Mr. Working-My-Ass-Off-To-Make-Ends-Meet as he gets sent through the system, BEGINNING with the 6 month wait for his semi-emergency situation doctor's appointment."

Not in anyone's WILDEST dreams ...

You're deluded.

Well we are the greatest nation on earth so we deserve a system that is better than Canada's, right?

I'd totallt knock boots with Bree Olsen

~~  "Hello?  Helpful Hospital?  I'm thus-and-such-and-so-and-so with the BBC, doing an in depth report on UHC.  Could you show me the ropes?"

--  "Sure enough, Mr. Reporter!  We'll let you accompany Mr. Working-My-Ass-Off-To-Make-Ends-Meet as he gets sent through the system, BEGINNING with the 6 month wait for his semi-emergency situation doctor's appointment."

Not in anyone's WILDEST dreams ...

Yeah, you definitely dont have an opinion one way ore the other, now do you?

The truth is, I'm afraid to hope for it, Ian.

It COULD be the best care in the world, but our gov has not exactly shown any ability to manage, well, pretty much ANYthing, without turning it into a three ring circus in which the taxpayer (ReadThat: working class person) gets screwed.

Hey, and I know I sound like a MESS, on here, but I'm not so foolish as to not understand that if I'm already falling on a certain side on an issue?  I'd better have TWICE as much proof For my opinion than against my opinion, in order for my opinion to be valid,

TO MY OWN SELF.

I'd totallt knock boots with Bree Olsen

Thanks I was trying to remember her name. Yeah sh's smokin but she fakes it and you can tell. Probably frigid.

The truth is, I'm afraid to hope for it, Ian.

It COULD be the best care in the world, but our gov has not exactly shown any ability to manage, well, pretty much ANYthing, without turning it into a three ring circus in which the taxpayer (ReadThat: working class person) gets screwed.

Hey, and I know I sound like a MESS, on here, but I'm not so foolish as to not understand that if I'm already falling on a certain side on an issue?  I'd better have TWICE as much proof For my opinion than against my opinion, in order for my opinion to be valid,

TO MY OWN SELF.

 I never said it was perfect... it certainly isnt perfect here... but it covers the basics. 80/20 rule, get most of it working, work on the other stuff later

I would expect it to be every bit as good as the HMO I had, way back when.  It wasn't bad care, and I could certainly live with it, but it was only good care because there was an expectation of a certain level of care, and it was maintained by oversight.  If it's the gov doing the oversight?  We're fucked.

American's are pissed off at the gov, especially over the crap they're trying to slip by us, and this Health Care thing is proving to be Business As Usual for them.  COSTS of the actual care, the med research, the equipment ~ NONE of that has been addressed, and until the costs for all of that come down, we simply can't afford what's being offered.

Total cost for the Blue Cross/Blue Shield coverage we now have is about $300/mo, plus we put $150/mo onto a Flex Card.  Dear's company, the state of Texas, pays for part of his medical coverage, but I'm not sure how much it is.

Now, if over $300/mo, just over 11.5% of Dear's gross, isn't even paying for OUR care,

how in the HELL are we going to pay for all of the folks that don't work???

I mean, I could surely foresee a cost of 25% of our income going to Health Care,

and the QUALITY of that care falling through the floor, because it STILL isn't enough to "cover the skyrocketing costs."

Instead of forcing the people to buy insurance, why aren't we talking about forcing those costs WAY down, so that folks could just AFFORD to go to the doctor and fill a prescription?

Why does the solution ALWAYS have to be to Throw MORE Money at the problem, instead of yanking BACK some of it?

And why isn't there ANY Health Care Plan on ANY burner that would do just that, giving the people a CHOICE?

Most western nations manage health care well enough for it not to be an issue

Some Eastern nations do as well... like Taiwan...

I just had to look up "Western Nations" and What a Shock:

When referring to current events, the term "Western World" often includes[citation needed] developed countries in Asia, such as Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, and South Korea, that have strong economic, political and military ties to Western Europe, NATO or the United States. While these countries also have substantial Western influence and similarities in their cultures, they nonetheless maintain largely different and distinctive cultures, religions (although Christianity is a major religion in South Korea), languages, customs, and worldviews that are products of their own indigenous development, rather than solely Western influences.

The bold is mine ~ So, even though they're considered Western Nations, there is some place ELSE that provides Western Influences?


See, I was going for America and Canada as being the predominant "Western Nations" ~ had a good smart-assed reply all typed up, about it being the "Honky Nations" that Nick was referring to, and how those profile-ie "names" can sometimes come in quite handy, ...  <sigh>

Yeah, where Honky = english speaking, caucasian, developed  -- like that.

Nice tactic, change the topic, write some gibberish and discredit the countries that have a system that works. Someone should tell the GDP they can stop engaging in rational debate

I was replying to Mosh's post about Taiwan being an Eastern Nation, which I would have thought, also, but according to Wiki, it is considered a Western Nation.

Are you angry with me for some reason?

My main problem with the "health care reform" debate is that a real system where people get real benefit would be a system of UHC, where the taxpayer pays equal share as everyone, everyone is covered, businesses no longer have to bother with coverage, people are free to move from job to job and location to location without worrying about losing their coverage, etc.

What we are getting is a system where everyone is required to buy health insurance, no cost reduction incentives are baked in to the legislation, no guarantees about medical coverage are made, no competition between insurance companies is promoted, and what is left is really no benefit to anyone except someone who is unemployed or underemployed without any coverage at all.

The public overwhelmingly supports a "public option" health care plan, yet it was the first thing removed from the table in cross-party negotiations.  Now Republicans are demanded the bill be debated further so they can castrate what little is left of it.  Anyone who champions "health care reform" that we are getting now is delusional.

Also, the U.S. suffers dramatically from "we want this, but we want someone else to pay for it" syndrome.  It permeates every aspect of our politics, budgeting at all levels of government, and popular rage among any kind of tax or levy.  Our society is full of ruthless cunts who are only out for their own, and the idea of paying 1% more taxes for lifetime health care for all citizens is something that they consider to be a direct affront.

That last bit is something I noticed as prevalent in the US. You get what you pay for, and if you dont want to pay for decent UHC, then you're gonna get exactly what you're paying for.

1.5% increase in taxes is all it takes. But seeing as you're tax systems are so convoluted, I can see how even a small increase can be seen as huge theft.

 

I was replying to Mosh's post about Taiwan being an Eastern Nation, which I would have thought, also, but according to Wiki, it is considered a Western Nation.

Are you angry with me for some reason?

I don't think he is, I think he'd just be interested to see you back up your insta-fox-news-crap about government-run healthcare systems with some actual facts or somewhat thought out arguments, at least.

People spend billions of dollar per year on the lottery, which you basically have a zero percentage chance of winning.

On the other hand, you've got a pretty solid chance of incurring a major medical expense in your lifetime.  

I think Americans are generally prone to magical thinking, where we all might one day be rich and nothing bad will ever happen to us.  And our politicians are so fucking corrupt that they're willing to play right along with that line of reasoning for personal profit.

Assassinate a few... doesnt matter who, just pick a few from each side, and a couple of minor party ones as well, just to let them know they aint immune.

Assassinate them ALL.

Watching you argue about healthcare is like watching a debate on access to clean water where more people are concerned who wins the debate than whether they have anything to drink. That's what it comes accross to us gaijin anyway

The only argument is from the right wing and the tea partiers,  who believe every person must earn every crumb they eat, every drop they drink and every breath they take. Anything less is Socialism, pure and simple, and that is not what this country was founded upon. Never mind charity, never mind the poor, weak huddled masses, never mind the unemployment rates and the failing economy, get off your dead ass and earn a dollar and buy your own fucking health insurance you deadbeat nigger, mexican, illegal alien, welfare baby producing, foodstamp using scumbag piece of shit.

Any questions?

That about sums it up.

I gotta get out of this country...