I've never heard of anything Nintendo not being curable by simply blowing on it.
But who am I to judge. You're free to waste your money on whatever you wish. That's the glory of capitalism.

This is somewhat of a cross topic/fourm post.


I remember playin turn based games in the late 80s. They were fun. I would go to comp club every week, hand in my disk and rush home after to see where i stood in the game.

These games are very simple and small. Ive gone around looking for one and I can't seem to find any, the one we played was based on star trek, space seems to be the best type of genre/map for these slower trivial amusements.


This type of game is also something id love to see developed as a message board plug-in. Do they exisit as plugs ? I can't find any.

I loved playing play-by-mail games in the early 1980's. There was a Tasmanian company ran a great geme.

Tasmanian!

This is somewhat of a cross topic/fourm post.


I remember playin turn based games in the late 80s. They were fun. I would go to comp club every week, hand in my disk and rush home after to see where i stood in the game.

These games are very simple and small. Ive gone around looking for one and I can't seem to find any, the one we played was based on star trek, space seems to be the best type of genre/map for these slower trivial amusements.


This type of game is also something id love to see developed as a message board plug-in. Do they exisit as plugs ? I can't find any.

Do you mean stuff like Pimpwar?  Games like that are all over the net.  My cousin is always playing them, but they bore me to death.  If you want me to I could Skype him for some of the ones he plays.  I remember that there's one he's really fond of that he's been playing for like, three or four years, that's a fantasy setting with knights and peasants and shit.

naa. i mean..hmm.

what im talking about had maps, you moved accross them and shit i dunno how to describe it other than an 80s 2d version of homeworld, without all the mining type stuff.


i should point out i have no idea what pimpwars looks like. yes, that would be proper.

Try playing a RTS on a console (think gampad Vs mouse/keyboard).

Halo Wars has done a pretty impressive job at bringing RTS to the console.
Also, Tom Clancy's Endwar used voice control, which shows a lot of promise!

What a typically techie line of argument.
What a foolish techie move: to cripple your gaming by reducing yourself to the world of consoles.

Actually, a key point here between PC gaming and console gaming is standards and interface.

standards:
With a console, you can be sure to get the same experience at every instance of that console.  There's no chance that you'll come across a console that - in perfect working order - is unable to play a game at the appropriate resolution or anti-aliasing level.

interface:
playing a game with a console controller can often have a completely different experience than playing the same game with a keyboard and a mouse.  similarly, playing a game with a Wiimote yields a different experience when compared to playing the same game using a normal console controller.

And, of course, to run high-def games, you need a non-Wii console.
So, sometimes, tech specs matter.

Try playing a RTS on a console (think gampad Vs mouse/keyboard).

Halo Wars has done a pretty impressive job at bringing RTS to the console.
Also, Tom Clancy's Endwar used voice control, which shows a lot of promise!

nevermind. missed the wars part.

and yeah i think i remember reading about halowars somewhere. i read about games, dont play them though.

RTS, FPS, (MMO)RPGs > Almost always better on PC
Platformers, Sports, Action/Adventure Games, Racing/Flying, Fighting > Almost always better on Consoles

I could exhaustively elaborate on this for eternity, but I will try to sum it up as best as I can.

RTS FPS and RPG games usually requires dozens, some requiring up to hundreds of different button combinations in order to use all available abilities.  The only way to make these games work on console is to dumb down the complexity of them and vastly modify their control schemes.

Someone cited Halo Wars as a successful example of Console RTS.  I'd say Halo Wars is a perfect example of a dumbed down RTS system vastly modified to fit an unnatural control scheme.

Here's how the control is described on the Halo Wars wikipedia entry:
"Designed specifically for the Xbox 360, Halo Wars uses the console controller's A-button for unit selections. A single tap of the A button selects one unit, a double-tap all units of a like type, and holding down the button creates a paintbrush-style selection cursor. The X-button for moving to or attacking a target, and the Y button activates special abilities.[7] The D-pad is used for navigating to battles or cycling through bases. Buildings and upgrades are arranged and managed in a circle-shaped menu.[8]"

Here's how I would describe the control of a computer RTS:
"Use mouse, highlight all units, click keyboard key or mouse action to do something with them."

FPS games on consoles are usually are dumbed down with auto-aim and limited content.  Since it is impossible to mimic the precision of mouse aiming on PC FPS with a console control stick, most games just resort to letting the game aim for you automatically, which takes the majority of the skill and fun out of the game.  Additionally, most FPS games on PC thrive on user created content, levels, mods, design packs, additions, and none of that is available to most console titles.

RPG games are a mixed bag, depending on how they are designed you can play them equally on either system, but MMORPGs can only be played on PCs because the complexity of control (and communication) requires too many buttons to ever rationally put on a controller.  I would like to see someone try but I don't think it will ever work.

-----
Platformers, Sports, Action/Adventure Games, Racing/Flying, Fighting

These games are almost always better on consoles.  Platformers are ideal, control sticks and few buttons are all you need for a good platform jumper.  Sports games are great on consoles and most companies rarely even release versions of their Sports games on PCs anymore.  General Action/Adventure games are a mixed bag, but more end up on consoles than PC by a wide margin.  Racing and Flying are almost always better with a stick/controller than a mouse and keyboard.  Fighting games are designed perfectly for consoles, because most games require only a stick and 6-8 buttons.

MMORPGs can only be played on PCs because the complexity of control (and communication) requires too many buttons to ever rationally put on a controller.  I would like to see someone try but I don't think it will ever work.

Woah!

I'm actually working on some software RIGHT NOW that translates button combos into actions, specifically for WoW.  Turns it into kind of a fighter.

It's not done but, when it is, I'd be glad to share it with you.  You said that you're a Warhammer guy, right?

Also, one of the most popular MMOs to ever hit the market, FF11, is played on the xbox 360, and even on the PC it's designed to be used with a gamepad.

MMORPGs can only be played on PCs because the complexity of control (and communication) requires too many buttons to ever rationally put on a controller.  I would like to see someone try but I don't think it will ever work.

Woah!

I'm actually working on some software RIGHT NOW that translates button combos into actions, specifically for WoW.  Turns it into kind of a fighter.

It's not done but, when it is, I'd be glad to share it with you.  You said that you're a Warhammer guy, right?

I played WOW for a long time.  When I did, I had probably 4-5 bars (4 or 5 x 12 = 48-60) abilities bound to various key and key combinations.  That alone is not possible on any console controller.  If you are clicking your abilities with a pointer or a control stick you are inherently slower/less competitive than other players.  You lose time and lose precision.  Same reason you can't play as precisely in FPS games on a console controller.

How exactly do you propose to overcome the communication barrier?  Without a keyboard how do you group up with people and socialize or work as a team?  PC MMOs force at least minimal communication via in game chat and have optional support for voice communication if people have microphones.

How can you modify the game interface on a console title?  In WoW and Warhammer (the two MMOs I have any real experience with) the default interface is so god awful that I wouldn't be able to accurately perform my class roles in the game without addons.  Addons are made by third parties to improve the interface.  As far as I know it's not possible to do this on a console.

This is what I would see as the three major obstacles to overcome for a console MMO.

Also, one of the most popular MMOs to ever hit the market, FF11, is played on the xbox 360, and even on the PC it's designed to be used with a gamepad.

If you have more abilities than buttons there has to be some type of control compromise.  I have absolutely no experience playing FF11 but how would you use several dozen abilities on a gamepad with only 8-12 buttons?

standards:
With a console, you can be sure to get the same experience at every instance of that console.  There's no chance that you'll come across a console that - in perfect working order - is unable to play a game at the appropriate resolution or anti-aliasing level.

Consoles are unable to play much much more than PCs are unable to play. Your point here boils down to the fact that consoles are immutable and PC are extremely modifiable. I'm afraid that's really only an impediment to game-play for the lazy and/or mindless. Not a very strong argument in favor of Xbox360 over PC... No argument in favor of Xbox360 over Wii.

interface:
playing a game with a console controller can often have a completely different experience than playing the same game with a keyboard and a mouse.  similarly, playing a game with a Wiimote yields a different experience when compared to playing the same game using a normal console controller.

Like I said, PCs are
modifiable. No argument favoring Xbox360 over PC or Wii.

So, sometimes, tech specs matter.

If tech specs matter then...
Buy. A. Computer.
You can surpass any console system on the market by modifying your PC. It'll be easier than modifying your console I guarantee.
If you refuse to modify anything then buy a Wii because they're way hotter.

Ultimately, however, feel free to flush your money down the toilet on whatever you wish. It greases the wheels of the economy.

Also, one of the most popular MMOs to ever hit the market, FF11, is played on the xbox 360, and even on the PC it's designed to be used with a gamepad.

If you have more abilities than buttons there has to be some type of control compromise.  I have absolutely no experience playing FF11 but how would you use several dozen abilities on a gamepad with only 8-12 buttons?

Combos!

Buy. A. Computer.
You can surpass any console system on the market by modifying your PC. It'll be easier than modifying your console I guarantee.

I see where we're missing each other here.  Consumer versus Supplier.
Also, I'm looking at things from a developer's standpoint, and you're being a douche.

When I'm writing software for a controlled environment, I'm able to focus on things other than compatibility with a wide variety of commodity hardware.  It also means I'm able to fine-tune that software, since I know exactly what I can and can't expect from the target platform.

Additionally, when I'm writing for a controlled environment, I don't have to worry about delivery channels and controlling the distribution of your product.  And this is one of the big reasons that PC gaming is becoming less and less prevalent:  lack of control by the Suppliers.  So as much as my PC might be able to handle any and everything thrown at it, without having Suppliers producing software to throw, it's just so much hardware.

Luckily, systems like Steam are working in the favor of developers and players, such that more and more indie houses are signing on with Steam as a distribution channel.  That's good news for PC gamers, who have not had a good time of it in the last few years of cross-platform development.

To conclude:
Certainly, a $500 PC has more power under the hood than any 360, PS3, or Wii.

But I wasn't talking about PCs in the first place; I was talking about consoles, and what having more capable hardware means for comparing consoles.

Which is why the Wii is not superior to the Xbox360, when considering technical specs:  the Wii's hardware is inferior.
However, the Wii IS superior to the Xbox360, when considering sales numbers:  the Wii's interface is more accessible.

Also, one of the most popular MMOs to ever hit the market, FF11, is played on the xbox 360, and even on the PC it's designed to be used with a gamepad.

If you have more abilities than buttons there has to be some type of control compromise.  I have absolutely no experience playing FF11 but how would you use several dozen abilities on a gamepad with only 8-12 buttons?

Uh, I dunno... radial menus maybe?  Or just make the game playable so you don't have to download a custom UI with so many ability buttons that it blocks out the screen?

When I played WoW people would look at my screenshots and marvel at the fact that I used the default UI instead of a custom one.  I couldn't stand the custom UIs, they were buggy, crappily designed, and covered up my field of vision which drove me nuts, so I just mapped all of my abilities to hotkeys/key combinations that I memorized.

When I played WoW people would look at my screenshots and marvel at the fact that I used the default UI instead of a custom one.  I couldn't stand the custom UIs, they were buggy, crappily designed, and covered up my field of vision which drove me nuts, so I just mapped all of my abilities to hotkeys/key combinations that I memorized.

How long ago was that?

I know that back in the first few years, WoW UIs could be sketchy, but there's quite a significant homebrew market now, populated by very talented folks.  They do a much better job of things, these days.

I played for a year-and-a-half off and on, from... Early 2005  to mid-2006 I think.  Then one night I was sitting there after a kill in BWL listening to some other roues argue with hunters over some piece of purple loot for over a half an hour, and I suddenly realized that... I'd been playing this game for a year and a fucking half alongside these idiots.  I imagine I had the same feeling that alcoholics get during their "moment of clarity".

The next day I inventoried all my shit, logged off, and canceled my subscription, and within the week sold my rogue for 300 bucks. 

Never looked back.

Uh, I dunno... radial menus maybe?  Or just make the game playable so you don't have to download a custom UI with so many ability buttons that it blocks out the screen?

When I played WoW people would look at my screenshots and marvel at the fact that I used the default UI instead of a custom one.  I couldn't stand the custom UIs, they were buggy, crappily designed, and covered up my field of vision which drove me nuts, so I just mapped all of my abilities to hotkeys/key combinations that I memorized.

Here's my level 60 priest interface (from 3 years ago maybe?), he had 36 keybindings which you can see on the top of each ability.  Keep in mind two expansions later most characters have 10-15 new abilities.  My Paladin had 4 rows of keybindings and one hidden so about 55-60 bindings.

Plus when you play a healer you have to keep track of every other single person in your entire party and keeping them alive and buffed, etc.  Back in this time you had 40 man raids so you had to do that for 40 different people, which is everything on the right side of my screen.

You can get away with a default interface if you play maybe a Rogue (single focus dps with no real group abilities at all)?  But other than that, if you aren't paying attention to and helping your group mates with what they are doing (and you generally need mods to identify a lot of these problems) then you aren't doing everything you can to succeed.

Uh, I dunno... radial menus maybe?  Or just make the game playable so you don't have to download a custom UI with so many ability buttons that it blocks out the screen?

Different classes have different needs in their interface.  Like I described above, healers need to be able to pay more attention to their group than focus DPSers.  DPSers might need a mod to tell them how well they are doing vs. other DPSers or gauging their threat on the boss.  You can't build a one-sized fits-all interface for a game with numerous classes performing different roles.  That's why being able to customize the interface is so important to me, and if your friends who marveled at your default setting are any indication, its very important to them as well.

I'd go so far as to say that I'm so used to customizable interfaces now in games like WoW/War that I would flat out refuse to purchase and play any other MMO that didn't allow the same kind of customization, in that it is a basic requirement to be operable and work towards the users goal in the game which can often be vastly different between users.  Additionally, I'd say that it's actually physically impossible for a company to design an interface for a game as complicated as most MMOs that fits all the requirements of everyone who will play it.

Yeah, from three years ago, but you forget that even WoW is moving away from that.  Didn't they change all of their 40-man instances to 20-man with one of those expansions?  At least I think I heard that.  And even before then, most of the new ones like Ahn-Quirac or whatever it was called (the bug place that was added right before I quit the game) was 20-man-focused, or half of it was, and I bet those were lowered with that update.  Less people to keep track of means less micromanaging of abilities, means less need to customize your UI.

Once one of these companies decides to take something like Guild Wars (which I've ever played, but have heard a lot about) and scale it for a console WoW and MMOs like it will become a distant memory.

my favorite part of that screenshot is the chat transcript.

"To [Rzaa]:  tmi"

I loved playing that game come calculators had, you know, the one where the numbers would scroll across the lcd and you had to hit the right number before it made it the left hand side.


Now that was a fucking UI.

my favorite part of that screenshot is the chat transcript.

"To [Rzaa]:  tmi"

Leeroy! Dragon!

my favorite part of that screenshot is the chat transcript.

"To [Rzaa]:  tmi"

Leeroy! Dragon!

Leeroy.... Jenkins?

The same.

yeah the best part is the chat log, that was actually the original reason for the ss

Plus when you play a healer you have to keep track of every other single person in your entire party and keeping them alive and buffed, etc.  Back in this time you had 40 man raids so you had to do that for 40 different people, which is everything on the right side of my screen.

Does this sound sort of like being a fluffer at a porn shoot to anyone else, or is it just me?