Loaded-Gun.Com - Anti-Social.Com's Rejects!

General Category => Politics, Philosophy, News and/or Current Affairs => Topic started by: underclass on March 22, 2010, 09:45:57 PM

Title: ze healthcare thing
Post by: underclass on March 22, 2010, 09:45:57 PM
My take = this wont fix your issues but it will shake things in a direction so that the real gorilla in the room, litigation costs, wont be able to hide anymore.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: fyrenza on March 22, 2010, 10:23:24 PM
Yeah, who wants a bunch of pussy-assed health care folks that are required to be Responsible For Their Actions?
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Zoomie on March 22, 2010, 10:32:19 PM
Yeah, who wants a bunch of pussy-assed elected officials who actually fulfill their Responsibilities like they promised and don't kiss the ass of corporations?
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: fyrenza on March 22, 2010, 10:37:43 PM
Elected Officials and Responsibilities are mutually exclusive terms that cannot be used in the same sentence.

WTF did YOU go to school?!?  rofl
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Doormouse on March 22, 2010, 10:38:25 PM
Yeah, who's still naive about what actually motivates their elected officials after the last decade of chicanery?
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Zoomie on March 22, 2010, 10:48:21 PM
Oh well excuse me for believing that a president who said he was going to hold some feet to the fire on this issue would actually read the legislation he was shoving down our throats.

No you don't have to respond, you can just go fuck yourself.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: fyrenza on March 22, 2010, 10:50:06 PM
No time to fuck myself ~

I'm too busy being fucked by the gov!
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Zoomie on March 22, 2010, 10:51:56 PM
I didn't mean you dearest.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Doormouse on March 22, 2010, 11:02:12 PM
Would you prefer he didn't read it or that he read it and backed it anyway?
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Emperor Reagan on March 23, 2010, 12:09:32 AM
I still firmly believe profit-motive does not belong in the insurance industry.  Health insurance companies are competing for the people least likely to need their services and fuck everyone else.  It ended up skewing even the business practices of non-profits like the Blue Cross programs because the lower premiums of for-profit ventures bought off the healthiest customers, leaving them with the most expensive customers.

And that's in a market where we're all already paying for Medicare to cover the highest risk members of society.

There was only one correct answer in how to reform health insurance and no one even wanted to debate it. 


Litigation reform would be nice too, but everyone knew there was no chance of that with a Democratically controlled congress and their traditional allies.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Zoomie on March 23, 2010, 07:01:33 AM
Would you prefer he didn't read it or that he read it and backed it anyway?

I would have preferred that he read it and asked them "WTF are you DOING???" and I'm sober now but I thought I told you to go fuck yourself?
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Doormouse on March 23, 2010, 03:29:34 PM
You did,... but then you also said "you don't have to respond" in such a pathetically self-deprecating manner that I thought I should go ahead and respond so you didn't feel like I was cold-shouldering you.

So I fucked myself and then posted in that order.

Do you feel the love?
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Zoomie on March 23, 2010, 05:42:06 PM
Is that what it is? I thought it was crabs.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Thrash on March 23, 2010, 05:51:08 PM
Here's my thing;
... I just bought a business that hopefully will allow me time to be elsewhere physically in life

I haven't even opened the fucking doors yet and this legislation will reduce my initial profits by around 25% because I have employees I am now going to be REQUIRED to help provide healthcare for ...

What about me?

I'm 37 and haven't needed to see a doctor for 20+ years, really ...
WTF do I need it for at this time?

You know what?
I can't go with this right now ...

Now I'm back to scorned ...
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: ttfg on March 23, 2010, 05:57:47 PM
Complaining about the expenses... when you can afford to buy a business...  best keep that to yourself  (but i do understand your point.)
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Zoomie on March 23, 2010, 06:38:34 PM
Hur hur hur...

(http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/B/J/3/obama-package-headline.jpg)
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: fyrenza on March 23, 2010, 07:47:01 PM
ROFLMAO!!!  ^^^THAT is a Classic!!!
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Thrash on March 23, 2010, 10:29:13 PM
It's not QUITE like that ...
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: mosh on March 24, 2010, 03:49:32 AM
Here's my thing;
... I just bought a business that hopefully will allow me time to be elsewhere physically in life

I haven't even opened the fucking doors yet and this legislation will reduce my initial profits by around 25% because I have employees I am now going to be REQUIRED to help provide healthcare for ...

What about me?

I'm 37 and haven't needed to see a doctor for 20+ years, really ...
WTF do I need it for at this time?

You know what?
I can't go with this right now ...

Now I'm back to scorned ...

Simple solution, fire all the staff, and immediately hire them back as temps on 12 month contracts at slightly higher base pay. No annual leave costs, no health benefits costs, no compulsory superannuation costs.

That's gonna happen a lot across the USA. Being an employee is gonna be a thing of the past.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: underclass on March 24, 2010, 12:06:43 PM
It already is here (JPN)
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Thrash on March 25, 2010, 07:50:23 PM
Well, I'm thinking that, at least for two years or so when gubmint catches up, it'll be exempt under 1099 status ...
... if not, well, it's either under the table employees or, well, I'll worry it then (more toward what you said)
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: fyrenza on March 26, 2010, 05:46:07 AM
Just saw this:

Last Chance or Last Stand and Vaccination against the fear of God (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-3a42qdFhg#normal)

WILL there be rioting in the streets?

Cripes.

WTF was that about folks being INELIGIBLE for care if they aren't current on their vaccinations?!?

(I'll try to find some info)
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: underclass on March 26, 2010, 09:22:02 AM
Please type up the absolute worst case scenario and I'll come over to Rhubarb later and check it out
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Doormouse on March 26, 2010, 01:18:40 PM
That was a good video. It really cleared some things up for me. I'll just recap it for those that, like me, had some trouble playing it through LG and don't want to go to the pain of opening up a new window on YouTube.

Lies dispelled:
1)
LIE: Tea Party protesters are threatening the government because they haven't been able to move their representatives through their protests.
FACT: When the colonists couldn't move King George through their protests, they had a revolution against the government and shot and killed many British troops! Let that be a warning to you!

2)
LIE: Protesters are bringing guns to protests in attempts to threaten the government (as with the "We didn't bring guns... this time" poster).
FACT: Guns are legal to carry in Virginia. LEGAL TO CARRY.

Bonus FACT: Obama is a Marxist. Implant chips are the Mark of the Beast and we should all turn to the Book of Enoch. The Democrat Party are trying to inoculate us against fear itself.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Emperor Reagan on March 28, 2010, 08:59:11 AM
I still think it is funny that they've taken up the mantle of a bunch of drunk freemasons for their movement.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Tru on March 28, 2010, 02:21:09 PM
Washington was a drunken Freemason!


"Bonus FACT: Obama is a Marxist. Implant chips are the Mark of the Beast and we should all turn to the Book of Enoch. The Democrat Party are trying to inoculate us against fear itself."

There is no "mark of the beast", only beasts.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Thrash on March 28, 2010, 08:03:06 PM
See, I thought gub'mint was supposed to provide it, not that I'd be REQUIRED TO BUY IT!
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Zoomie on March 28, 2010, 10:00:22 PM
Leas' you gots a job, muthafukka...
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Thrash on March 28, 2010, 11:48:17 PM
We'll see how long that lasts ...
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: mosh on April 01, 2010, 04:49:37 AM
[Red Forman]Let me tell you something, if the US Government decides to stick a tracking device up your ass, you say "Thank You", and "God Bless America"[/Red Forman]
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: fyrenza on April 01, 2010, 03:28:18 PM
There's a loaded question for you ...

Is it better to be subversive, keeping the movement/idea (and yourself) alive,

or to go down in a ball of flames, martyred for your beliefs?
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Tru on April 01, 2010, 04:59:11 PM
Depends on the situation. If the act of going down in a ball of flames results in a tipping point being reached whereas your cause is thus put over the top amounting to a landmark win for whatever you are fighting for, then maybe.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Zoomie on April 01, 2010, 06:43:40 PM
Are you going to become a Buddhist monk and light yourself on fire?
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Thrash on April 02, 2010, 07:51:22 PM
W3RD!
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: mosh on April 02, 2010, 09:15:27 PM
you've taken to the w 3 rd substitution thing Dave. bravo!
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Thrash on April 02, 2010, 09:23:33 PM
Why not?
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Doormouse on April 03, 2010, 01:00:22 AM
Because it fools us all into reading the thread again when there's actually no new content.

Or at least that would be my argument if I cared about it at all... I say do what feels natural.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: mosh on April 03, 2010, 09:05:28 AM
we gota hng ous agin.. tht ws cool
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Doormouse on April 03, 2010, 12:48:42 PM
Agreed. I have to hit up Uluru at some point too. I have very vague plans to travel after this year of hell. We'll see what comes of them.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: mosh on April 03, 2010, 09:23:13 PM
Ok... I can do that, I have some experience in going to Ayers Rock...
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: FAH-Q on April 04, 2010, 07:31:09 PM
According to a book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Down-Under-Bill-Bryson/dp/055299703X) I just re-read, getting to Ulurayresrock is either an easy flight or a bitch of a drive. Still true?
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: ttfg on April 04, 2010, 10:44:51 PM
Kangaroo pouch... the best way to travel in OZ.

(yes, your right, the drive from Alice to the rock is still annoying though, short, but annoying.)
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Doormouse on April 05, 2010, 12:59:12 AM
removed for lack of sequiturs[.size]
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Zoomie on April 07, 2010, 08:14:08 AM
OK so let me see if I have this right. Stay with me, it's confusing...

Massachusetts, which recently sent conservative Scott Brown to the US Senate on the platform of "NO HEALTHCARE BILL", has a law requiring every citizen to have healthcare coverage. Just like the new Healthcare LAW. With fines if you DON'T have coverage. And health insurance in Mass is expensive so the state is legislating insurance costs, forcing insurance companies to take major losses. And the entire mess is about to end up in court. Which goes back to my original point of several months ago, WE NEEDED TORT AND INSURANCE REFORM BEFORE UNIVERSAL HEALTH COVERAGE.

Now the Fed is going to try to legislate everything health related and it's all going to end up before a BUSH APPOINTED judge someplace and he or she will decide what's best for you. I really hate to say I told you so. But we've once again put the cart before the horse... Hey, it's the American way!
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Thrash on April 07, 2010, 07:09:33 PM
/me stands and applauds while other around stare blankly *
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Zoomie on April 07, 2010, 07:20:44 PM
DUH I knew you'd get it.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Lothar on April 08, 2010, 04:39:25 AM
When the right-wingers don't get the government they want, they try to stop everyone from having any government.

And I'm really sick of this whole "Democrat party" shit. It's Democratic Party fuckheads.

I know this is just a stupid ploy to irritate me, but sometimes it works.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Zoomie on April 08, 2010, 06:51:32 AM
No, that's just the uneducated sheep following the teabaggers and the way they talk. Living in Kentucky I thought you'd know this...
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Doormouse on April 08, 2010, 07:52:09 AM
No, I'm pretty sure Lothar's right. It is a ploy designed to irritate those that self-identify as Democrats. The entire Fox News network uses the term "Democrat Party" and I'd imagine that at one point or another they must have been told that this was the wrong way to say the phrase. This isn't a lack of education thing. It's a bizarre attempt to come up with a pejorative expression.

There are a few things that the Republicans have done in the past like this. GW Bush's repeated use of the word "nucular" in public, for instance. Don't tell me there wasn't even one adviser/handler who at some point hadn't told him that this was in fact the wrong way to pronounce it. Bush's use of the term was a conscious decision. It was a "Fuck you" to what he perceived as the pointy-headed scientists and intellectuals who endorsed things like global warming and who denounced his war-for-oil plans and who hadn't voted for him.

Both of these are examples of conscious misuses of the words for divisive reasons. I think it's a way to separate the true believers from rest of the voting public. Sure there are many idiots who think that these terms are in fact correct, but these idiots are almost universally Republicans. Where do you think they picked up the terms? If you watch nothing but Fox News all the time then you're bound to pick up some of the "no spin" and most of the associated terminology.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: 13chemicals on April 08, 2010, 03:57:00 PM
I thought I got free healthcare through school.  Nope.  It's $1000 a year outside of what financial aid covers.  I can't afford it.  I called MAPS to get free healthcare through the city and I have an appointment on the 21st.  Hopefully I get it!
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: mosh on April 17, 2010, 03:55:32 AM
How many titty bar dances would you need to do to scrape up $1K?
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: underclass on April 17, 2010, 04:32:15 AM
For you Ian, about 400
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Thrash on April 17, 2010, 04:39:01 AM
No, honestly, he tips well; I've seen it firsthand ...
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Nitya on April 17, 2010, 06:17:05 AM
Dave only had to do an odd hundred for him to earn that amount. 
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: mosh on April 17, 2010, 06:50:10 AM
Nah, I think he's asking how many titty dances I'd have to perform to scrape together $1k...

I'm sure its more than 400.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Nitya on April 17, 2010, 09:14:37 AM
Hmm if youre really that bad im sure theyd tip you to stop.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: mosh on April 17, 2010, 09:56:33 AM
Its coz I refuse to wax my chest and tape back my tackle.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Zoomie on April 18, 2010, 08:41:49 AM
Let Ripley's do a plaster cast of your moobs, that'll cover it.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: underclass on April 21, 2010, 12:15:21 AM
The money ticket here would be supplying that much plaster
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Zoomie on April 21, 2010, 06:27:08 AM
(http://www.plasterblaster.com/images/pb_map.gif)
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Thrash on April 22, 2010, 05:09:58 PM
Nah, I think he's asking how many titty dances I'd have to perform to scrape together $1k...

I'm sure its more than 400.

Yeah, I misread it ..
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: 13chemicals on April 24, 2010, 12:16:29 AM
My boyfriend is sick and refuses to go to the doctor, but he has healthcare.  I on the other hand do not have it and would love to go to the doctor in order to get a physical.  I keep getting staph infections and I need to find out why.... get my blood checked out and such.  Oh well.... tis life.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Thrash on April 24, 2010, 05:10:50 PM
Blood staph, ear/nose/throat staph, or open wound staph?
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: FAH-Q on April 24, 2010, 05:35:51 PM
Yeah, can't some staph infections be life-threatening?
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: fyrenza on April 24, 2010, 09:33:50 PM
Yeah, can't some staph infections be life-threatening?

Yes.

Sasha?  You need to give us a little more info for us to be able to help.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Doormouse on April 24, 2010, 11:19:55 PM
Maybe this is a touch too cynical but I don't think Sasha is here for help. I think she's mainly here to complain.
I get that though. Complaining feels good.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Thrash on April 25, 2010, 02:56:01 PM
Still though ...
ANY staph can easily spread and cause one to be septic ...
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: 13chemicals on April 26, 2010, 01:15:08 AM
The staph I have is on the side of my head next to my left ear.  It has been reoccurring for years now!  I hate it.  It felt like the side of my face was on fire.  It is just something I have to deal with.  The doctor gave me a sulfa style medication for it.  I am allergic to sulfa's so I asked for the alternative.  It is making it go away but it is such a sloooooowwww process!  I have asked so many doctors why I get it and how to avoid it.  The newest doctor said to bathe in hibiclens every couple of days and that it is just something I have to deal with.... forever.  I am beginning to wonder if I could get something removed... surgically, so that I can stop having these "outbreaks."
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Zoomie on April 26, 2010, 07:04:10 AM
You should get a head CT. If you have a cavernous malformation, an unusual mass of blood vessels in that region, it could harbor the infection in dormancy.

I know this because it happened to me in my 20s. A little surgery and you'll be fine.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Thrash on April 26, 2010, 11:14:10 AM
Good call ...
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: 13chemicals on April 26, 2010, 06:52:33 PM
I had one of those about a year ago when they thought my brain was bleeding since I was having fainting spells.  Turns out my brain wasn't bleeding and they just decided I was having panic attacks.  I wonder how much a CT would cost without insurance.  If I don't get a CT can I just go without one for awhile?  What would you recommend I do in the meantime?  Everyone already thinks I'm a germaphobe.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Zoomie on April 26, 2010, 08:29:05 PM
If you have a cluster that is harboring a dormant infection, you;re going to keep getting it and getting it until you build up a tolerance to whatever anti-biotic they are giving you and then the infection kills you.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Thrash on April 26, 2010, 10:44:10 PM
Good call ...
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Zoomie on April 26, 2010, 11:05:07 PM
Of course you could just have a weakened immune system from something else you have...?
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: ttfg on April 27, 2010, 12:39:48 AM
Good analysis aint cheap. Neither is a bad analysis.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: fyrenza on April 27, 2010, 09:57:26 AM
...  I wonder how much a CT would cost without insurance.  ...

COST?!?  Good Grief, girlfriend, you stumble in, tell 'em you're an illegal, and to send the bill to the White House, for crying out loud!
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: 13chemicals on April 27, 2010, 10:17:24 PM
I think I might just go to the hospital tomorrow after my management test.  I developed a killer sore throat today.  I feel like I'm getting the flu.  I think the feeling sorry for myself concept has decided to wrap itself around me like a warm blanket.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Zoomie on April 28, 2010, 08:03:42 AM
This is what happens when you get clean and monogamous...
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Emperor Reagan on April 28, 2010, 09:08:56 AM
On the subject of healthcare, if Michael Moore is to be believed (sometimes his research is good, sometimes less so), the fine for denying someone for a pre-existing condition under the new bill is $100/day if they're caught.

So insurance companies have a pretty easy equation to figure out who to insure, still.  They just tack a $36,500 cost times some factor for the odds of getting caught into their existing formulas.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Zoomie on April 28, 2010, 11:15:02 AM
Been telling about that for weeks, it's apparently true.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Emperor Reagan on April 28, 2010, 12:23:39 PM
I guess I would be curious to find out what the average healthcare cost for a person denied coverage is.

It will probably be enough to push the current insure/not insure line out somewhat. 

I would basically take the average daily healthcare cost of a person denied coverage, assume a relatively low enforcement rate (say, 25%), add in the costs of enforcement to come up with my baseline fine.

I would then take that number and add another 100% for a punitive fine.

2*(daily healthcare cost/0.25+enforcement cost)=fine
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: fyrenza on April 29, 2010, 08:38:11 AM
So WTF does that mean,

in DOLLARS?
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Thrash on April 29, 2010, 11:50:48 AM
This is what happens when you get clean and monogamous...

Wait ...
Wha??? ...
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Zoomie on April 29, 2010, 08:49:35 PM
So WTF does that mean,

in DOLLARS?

Wendy, lets say you need a $300,000.00 surgery or you're going to die in 3 months. The insurance company has to choose between paying $300,000.00 or dropping you and paying $9,000.00.

Which one do you think they are going to choose?
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Emperor Reagan on April 29, 2010, 11:09:40 PM
My fine scenario means this:

If a company expects to actually pay $100 per day on average for an average patient's care, then the fine would be (and let's assume average daily enforcement costs 10% of the daily average cost):

2*(100/.25+100*.1)=820.

The company would have a choice between paying the $100 daily to actually insure the individual, OR pay $820 per day to be in non-compliance. 

If you're going to use fines as an enforcement tool, then you have to be sure that they're high enough to force companies to comply. 

Here's an easy example:

Let's say it costs $10 per day to park on the street in the city.  Assume, also, that you would be able to avoid the ticket 10% of the time either because someone fails to enforce it, or by appealing it through the courts.

If the fine for not paying at the meter is $8, then you should obviously take the ticket every single time.

If the fine for not paying at the meter is $10, then you should also take the fine every single time, because you won't have to pay 1 in ten times on average and you're breaking even at worse.

If the fine for not paying at the meter is $11, then you should also skip the meter every single time.  Paying 9 times out of ten, on average, means that you will save a dollar over paying at the meter.

It isn't until you hit a fine of $12 that it makes sense to consider paying at the meter. 

If you're a corporation in the US at that point, you still wouldn't consider paying the fine there.  You  would consider the cost of your lawyers/lobbyists/accounts/etc. and try to force the percentage of time you can get away with violating the law higher rather than actually paying the fine.

Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Emperor Reagan on April 29, 2010, 11:10:50 PM
I am drunk posting about healthcare fines.

Ugh.,
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Emperor Reagan on April 30, 2010, 02:43:28 PM
A good example of a horrible fine structure:

Eli Lily was marketing Zyprexa for off label use in elderly people for dementia.

The US government caught on to this about 4 years after the fact and fined them $1.4 billion.  Over the same time period, Eli Lily made nearly $40 billion on Zyprexa sales.

Fines on the order of 1-3%, typical of how drug companies get fined, do very little to deter or curb unethical behavior.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: fyrenza on April 30, 2010, 09:40:15 PM
You might have been drunk,

but you made GOOD sense, Emp!

Thank you BOTH for the explanation!

(I actually did that other post as a sort of jerking your chain type thing, but ended up LEARNING something!)
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Tru on April 30, 2010, 10:59:18 PM
Woohoo  um yeah.
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: fyrenza on May 01, 2010, 04:07:47 AM
STFU
Title: Re: ze healthcare thing
Post by: Thrash on May 04, 2010, 02:19:17 PM
This is why EmpCum is liquid gold and sold by the 1/4 dram ...