Disclaimer: I'm unaware how affected any of our folk are here by the issues with the American car industry



I am very curious on how people in the states feel about this. From my neutral (non-American, non-auto industry) perspective, this was necessary happening to reduce the choke hold UAW had on the car industry in the states. There is no way GM, Ford or Chrysler can compete with Japanese or Korean car makers who are not bound to the same union standards.

UAW or no. The USA is overdue to lose a marque/s from market pressure.

I'm not anti-union. I'm anti-piece-of-shit car.

The US hasn't produced a solid, affordable car since 1974. Fuck 'em. I'll buy a Hyundai.

You mean a Hunday.

No. Now I know you Ozzers have some rather funny words. And you think it quite humorous when us foreign fuckers mispronounce them. But take it from one who lived in Korea for many years and has an ex-brother in law who was on the Hyundai design team when the Excel was first built:

it's pronounced "YUHN-day" The H is silent and they Y is not.

Trivia: The original Hyundai Excel (the car I owned and drove the shit out of 1989-1992) was nothing more than the original Mitsubishi Lancer, built in the mid 80s and then licensed to Hyundai who restyled the interior and put their own power plant and transmission into it.

Yeah, knew that Zoomster.

Second model of the Excel was a nice job. Cant remember who the bought that design off.

Trivia: almost everything is something else.

You have to wonder how a giant corp like GM could be bankrupt or in financial crisis, truth is they can't be. They have purposely positioned themselves in such a way as to produce an illusion of insolvency. The purpose is to continue the looting of the American public perpetrated by the bush admin and their corporate cronies. in my opinion.

I kind of agree.  There's a lot of hand-waving, mumbo-jumbo bullshit that goes on in accounting that doesn't really make sense.  When I took accounting courses, I was astonished that it's not a straight forward subject.  You take credit for a tax credit that you haven't achieved and aren't likely to achieve one year, pay out big dividends and bonuses based on that profit, then 5 years later you take a huge loss when you have to account for the fact that you didn't actually earn the tax credit.

I think it boils down to GM making a ton of horrible business decisions more than the UAW blowing it with high wages.  Their management had zero foresight.  And they would ruin every good idea they had in short order - like integrating Saturn into the rest of the GM line, instead of trying to keep it a cheap and efficient vehicle.

I think the UAW is a convenient scape goat because we're supposed to trust that the Lords of the world know what they're doing with all of that Capital they possess.

Personally, I don't like how the news is talking about bankruptcy, but not talking about the TYPE of bankruptcy.

Personally, I think this is 20 years (at least) in the making. The US car makers focused on moving money instead of making cars, and when they did, the cars they made (including their flagship lines like Caddilac and Lincoln) were obsolete and seriously badly made. Really, who uses leaf springs anymore? Fit and finish? I'm not paying $50k for a car that the interior fitting dont meet up.

But that's ok, coz they were cheap, right? Thing is, the Asians made cheap cars that worked, were well put together, and lasted. I was amazed in the early 90's when I learned that the best selling model in the US was a Honda Accord (and had been for a few years). That should have been a cue right there. And I was even more amazed to learn that pick up trucks dont need to meet basic standards that cars need to meet. So slap some steel together, throw in a big donk up front, and market it as a real mans vehicle, and you'll sell shitload of 'em. At least until some fuckwit decides to go after the wrong target, and drives the price of fuel through the roof.

It's one thing building to a price, but its been proven that you can do that and not compromise quality. The UAW isnt the complete bastard here. Union's can be negotiated with, but it seems to me that the managements of these corporations got out manouvered everytime they negotiated with the UAW. The union did its job, and got the most it could for it members.

Their management had zero foresight. I think the UAW is a convenient scape goat.

In ignorance of exactly what happened in the boardroom. I agree.

the cars they made (including their flagship lines like Caddilac and Lincoln) were obsolete and seriously badly made. Really, who uses leaf springs anymore? Fit and finish? I'm not paying $50k for a car that the interior fitting dont meet up.

Not just the fit. The design alone was a shocker. Today their cabins seem to be more euro, I thinks from a desgin cost thing ( recycle the design ) than anything else.

The Asians made cheap cars that worked, were well put together, and lasted. I was amazed in the early 90's when I learned that the best selling model in the US was a Honda Accord (and had been for a few years). That should have been a cue right there.

If not that, Hyundai making inroads to all the other markets.

And I was even more amazed to learn that pick up trucks dont need to meet basic standards that cars need to meet. So slap some steel together, throw in a big donk up front, and market it as a real mans vehicle, and you'll sell shitload of 'em

Thats why they call utes, trucks. US utes scare the shit out of me. I refuse to get in them. Old F150 excluded.

The union did its job, and got the most it could for it members.

Right up untill their asking affected job security. (?) Note the question mark, I really dont know expactly how much money got wasted.

Does anybody know of a spreadsheet that shows what was comsumed on wage rises/benefits for workers ? Not UAW staff, rank and file auto workers. And second. The pension thing, we hear a bit about that every time theres a UAW/US car story published/broadcast,  How much has the pension plan affected the margins ?

Let's look at the bottom line here.

The big three are gonna fuck the UAW (and rightfully so) and while the US controls GM they will probably move a good portion of manufacturing and perhaps assembly to China to help pay back the immense amount of debt we've accumulated there. They've been talking about it all day and Obama more or less confirmed it when he refused to commit to preventing it.

Outside of QA issues in Chinese manufacturing I don't see the problem.

GM in china is growing. Building new plants as we type.

Evidence!

what the americans fucked up, the chinks can fix

Just don't let them start making our baby formula...

Evidence!

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a2xULWcy87mI&refer=home

I've missplaced the brain cell that remembers the factory link. it's mentioned in the above, but only as a "plans".

edit : still not the one i want but.... http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-06/01/content_11471265.htm

" "China has been the largest vehicle market in the world in the first five months of 2009. Industry sales grew 18.8 percent from the same period last year," Wale said.  "Domestic sales by GM China and our joint ventures continue to be strong, rising 33.8 percent year on year in the first five months. We intend to remain an industry leader in China," "

Does anybody know of a spreadsheet that shows what was comsumed on wage rises/benefits for workers ? Not UAW staff, rank and file auto workers. And second. The pension thing, we hear a bit about that every time theres a UAW/US car story published/broadcast,  How much has the pension plan affected the margins ?

You should check wolfram-alpha. it might know!

talk about your catchy, easy to type website names

The union did its job, and got the most it could for it members.

Right up untill their asking affected job security. (?) Note the question mark, I really dont know expactly how much money got wasted.

See that's the thing. Its easy to pick a target like the UAW, and take shots, but you cant take a shot at the management? Management at these companies were obviously non plussed about handing out ridiculous benefits to its unionised work force, probably because they themselves were doing alright. It's not the job of the UAW to run GM or Chrysler, that's what the shareholders hire management for. Obviously, the managements of the corporates were able to mask their incompetence to the owners of the businesses, or else they would (should) have been replaced long ago.

Out of all of this, the owners who were the ones who got fucked. And not just big fund managers, but I bet there are shitloads of little people who squirreled away their savings in GM shares for their retirement. It might not be a lot of money to Rich Wagoner, but to someone who worked for 45 years on an average income, its usually a fortune.

I'm from Michigan, I worked in Dearborn the last 3 years (where Ford's HQ is) and virtually every single person in the community I lived in was directly or indirectly affected by the Big 3 Automakers.  Unemployment in Michigan is something like 12-13% right now (highest in the nation) and will probably hit 20% when all these factories/dealerships/service centers close.  Needless to say I am glad I recently got the fuck out of there and most of my family is doing the same soon from what my Dad tells me.  Michigan people have known about this shit for years, and I don't think pointing the finger is really going to do anything, the blame is shared all over the place.

1) The entire industry was built on a model of infinite growth in the post-WW2 boom where the US Auto Industry sold cars to the entire world and built a pay and benefit model on the infinite continuation of that system which only existed in a brief post-war bubble and fucked them forever after that.

2) The auto workers had excellent working deals, but the accumulation of retirement benefits and high salaries (which were a result of enormous growth in the 50s and 60s) dragged the company down.  The people in most of these plants in Detroit, Flint, Pontiac, etc. in Michigan have basically high school degrees (if that) or some minor technical certs and make great money and have good benefits.  I know tons of people from my high school and family who went into jobs like that, and those jobs will no longer exist in any economy.  When people in Mexico, China, E. Europe, S. America are willing to work in factories and produce automobiles for 10% of what UAW demands then how can you continue to be competitive when you are paying the person who screws on the bolts 80k a year and paying 10k a month in medication's for his dad who was a previous generation worker.  Meanwhile, GM Mexico is paying their employees $1 a day with no benefits and have people lined up around the block.  And with industry automation the two factories can produce the exact same working car with very little skill involved outside of engineering and technical supervision.  The Union should have realized who they were really competing with (and it wasn't the management) and taken massive pay and benefit cuts.  Meanwhile, the management has fucked up just about every way you can with their financial situation and refused to handle their books until the last possible second, so they are just as much to blame.

3) Shitty fucking cars.  This goes without saying.  Most of the big 3 have only recently begun producing quality cars here and there (Chevy Malibu gets excellent ratings, F-150s get excellent ratings), but in all honesty the majority of brands and cars that are produced by big 3 automakers are pieces of shit.

3b) Car Design.  The big 3 spent most of the 90s and early 00s lobbying congress to prevent upping fuel efficiency restrictions on car design and now that MPG is probably the top 3 selling point on every vehicle moved off a lot in America who do you think is cleaning up in that business?  Japanese, Korean, European (and soon Chinese) automakers all realized a long time ago that fuel efficiency was a top priority.  Somehow the big 3 did not, and continued to design gas hogging pieces of shit and wondering why no one would buy them even as gas pushed $3/$4 a gallon.  They even had top models of cars they sold in Europe with excellent MPG that they just didn't put into production in the United States.

I could write about this all day but it just makes my skull boil thinking about it.  Entire cities in Michigan are just being hollowed out and abandoned with these business closings.  Michigan has been in a recession for like 3 years longer than the rest of the US economy and it is only getting worse.  Most people who are from Michigan have expected this for a long time (that these companies would fail) and most of us are so cynical and depressed about the economy of the state that it doesn't even matter at this point.  There's absolutely no future.

Well, there it is. No one can say it better than Chad. That's everything right there... what a mess.

1) The entire industry was built on a model of infinite growth in the post-WW2 boom where the US Auto Industry sold cars to the entire world and built a pay and benefit model on the infinite continuation of that system which only existed in a brief post-war bubble and fucked them forever after that.

That's a bug in the economic system that everyone is happy to deny.  All of the recovery plans that were thrown about basically stayed silent on the issue.

That's a bug in the economic system that everyone is happy to deny.  All of the recovery plans that were thrown about basically stayed silent on the issue.

Right, that's like the 800 lb gorilla in the room that's runnin' around high-fivin' with the other dozen of its kind.

This morning, I heard someone point out how crazy it is that the government gave GM $50B, and that they've still gone into bankruptcy.

Jon Stewart pointed that out last night as well.

And I love how Fritz Henderson, the acting Chairman and CEO stood up at a news conference yesterday and said "I expect GM to start turning a profit very soon. Perhaps in the next year or two."

OK. Great. But lets look at the facts. You've already agreed to retool several factories, you can hardly afford to build your "Volt" electric cars because the battery systems are extremely cost prohibitive, your North American Car Of the Year (Malibu) was outsold 2:1 by the Japanese car it was copied from (Camry, even though the Camry was $2000 MORE expensive), you're GOING to have issues with the UAW and you owe the American public FIFTY...BILLION...DOLLARS...

"...turn a profit very soon..."

Yeah, good luck with that, Fritz. Tool.

That's the same way my new CIO said that we were going to reduce I/T spending while increasing I/T output.

Jobs --> Mexico

http://www.gregpalast.com/grand-theft-auto-how-stevie-the-rat-bankrupted-gm/#more-2515