As for it being only the most fundamental/radical Muslims being dangerous, um... so what? Haven't we been repeatedly shown that there are enough of them to be a serious threat?

The most diehard followers of anything are the most dangerous people there are in any society. People with a cause, people with a passionate belief in whatever, for better or for worse, these are the people who get shit done. The danger to the less passionately convinced increases the more accepted the diehards are by the general public.

Literal-interpretation fundamentalism is the problem, not the religion. Can you imagine how offensive it is to be told that your religion is worthless simply because some modern-day morons who share your holy-book can't recognize that the book, as a set of instructions inspired by God and recorded in the year 600 A.D., requires a liberal/contextual reading? It's a seriously narrow-minded view that simply because dangerous radicals exist we should excise the entire institution. Dangerous radicals exist everywhere. By the same logic you should probably excise all religions.

This is just being beaten to death here, but the problem is fundamentalism and literalism. This goes beyond religion even. Dogma is dangerous. When you stop thinking about and reasoning about and questioning what you are doing then you do thoughtless, unreasonable, and questionable things. That is dangerous regardless whether it is in politics, religion, or anything.

Since 9/11 it has become popular to equate Islam with Islamic Fundamentalism. This is a mistake, and it's a thoughtless, unreasonable, and highly questionable one at that.

This is just being beaten to death here, but the problem is fundamentalism and literalism. This goes beyond religion even. Dogma is dangerous. When you stop thinking about and reasoning about and questioning what you are doing then you do thoughtless, unreasonable, and questionable things. That is dangerous regardless whether it is in politics, religion, or anything.

More danger to the average American from dogmatic politics than religious fundamentalism at the moment, I'd say.

I'm not following the discussion anymore, just one question.

Question: If Islam is the problem and we need to stop it creating more extremists then surely by openly persecuting Muslims we'll only create more?


Also, I double checked the spelling of extremists on dictionary.com and on the side, in related searches, was:
"What percentage of ...
What is meant by po...
Extremist groups
Islamic extremists
Extremist muslim be...
Religious extremist...
Christian extremist...
History of muslim e...
Muslim extremists a...
Muslim extremist st...
What percentage of ...
Extremist groups in..."       ...which i thought was amusing.

I think what we're seeing here is that Krsna is a fundamentalist.

I read this and immediately thought you guys were talking about God.

Literal-interpretation fundamentalism is the problem, not the religion.

Yes, in the same way that those pesky bullets are what do the harm, not the gun itself.

Can you imagine how offensive it is to be told that your religion is worthless

No. I have no religion, and while I respect people's rights to believe whatever they want, I still think they're absolutely deluded to believe any of this crap.

By the same logic you should probably excise all religions.

I fail to see how this would be a bad thing in the long run.

Since 9/11 it has become popular to equate Islam with Islamic Fundamentalism. This is a mistake, and it's a thoughtless, unreasonable, and highly questionable one at that.

I don't know that this is a mistake at all. Where are the huge crowds of regular ol' Muslims denouncing the actions of the Fundies? Where is the outcry from the moderates? If Islam would like to distance itself from the image its most radical elements create, it needs to step the fuck up and say something. That's what people who disapprove of stuff do. Spain kicked Aznar the fuck out and got out of Iraq cuz the majority of the Spanish people disagreed with what was going on. The Bush travesty resulted in Obama being elected in a landslide. I realize these are governments and not religions, but I don't think it's a completely unfair comparison.

Question: If Islam is the problem and we need to stop it creating more extremists then surely by openly persecuting Muslims we'll only create more?

Good point, and something I neglected to add to my earlier post about there being more than enough radical Muslims for them to be considered a threat, is that that's especially true considering how many martyrs have been created recently.

But I'm not advocating persecuting Muslims, or stopping them from believing whatever they like. All I think is any modern country ought to have a zero tolerance policy for people doing harmful shit in the name of their imaginary friend, no matter who that may be.

David Berkowitz said the neighbour's dog told him to kill, and he was rightfully removed from society. Most people you ask would agree that he was a sick, crazy fuck. How is killing in the name of god any better?

Literal-interpretation fundamentalism is the problem, not the religion.

Yes, in the same way that those pesky bullets are what do the harm, not the gun itself.

To follow this analogy, you're mistaking the armed gun-owner for the gun. Just because someone owns a gun doesn't mean he should or has to use it.
There is nothing fundamental to Islam that requires its adherents to kill heathens any more than there is something fundamental to the the Tanakh that requires its adherents to only eat certain foods lest they should go to hell.
The idea that literal interpretation is the only way to go is positively medieval. Religion has come a long way since then.

Can you imagine how offensive it is to be told that your religion is worthless

No. I have no religion, and while I respect people's rights to believe whatever they want, I still think they're absolutely deluded to believe any of this crap.

By the same logic you should probably excise all religions.

I fail to see how this would be a bad thing in the long run.

Well this is a different question which (without proselytizing) I agree with you about. The only thing that makes me disgusted is the offensive level of vitriol leveled at Islam in isolation. Quotes like these bother me:

(click the link)
and

(click the link)
If you want to do away with all religion equally then you'd find a more appreciative audience in me.

Since 9/11 it has become popular to equate Islam with Islamic Fundamentalism. This is a mistake, and it's a thoughtless, unreasonable, and highly questionable one at that.

I don't know that this is a mistake at all. Where are the huge crowds of regular ol' Muslims denouncing the actions of the Fundies? Where is the outcry from the moderates? If Islam would like to distance itself from the image its most radical elements create, it needs to step the fuck up and say something. That's what people who disapprove of stuff do. Spain kicked Aznar the fuck out and got out of Iraq cuz the majority of the Spanish people disagreed with what was going on. The Bush travesty resulted in Obama being elected in a landslide. I realize these are governments and not religions, but I don't think it's a completely unfair comparison.

Muslims are reacting defensively these days to what they interpret (quite accurately it appears) as an attack on their religion as a whole. It's quite incorrect to believe that the Muslim community doesn't speak out against violence. I assume you're referring exclusively to the face of Islam on TV - namely the Taliban. Normal Muslims have decried violence and have tried to demonstrate that their religion is about peace and love. They have been viciously mocked for this.

Some religions have come a long way since medieval times, but how do you explain an entire region of the world who would rather stay in the dark ages as a small population of extremists?

Why do you defend Islam so vehemently if you claim you're against religion as a whole? You're really making me wonder if you have denounced all religion except for the one you know is the only real one. Is this the case?

Y'know, people ask em all the time what my religion is, and I ask what they mean... So they ask whom I worship and I tell them I worship my Goddess... and they ask me what my Goddess is and I tell them they're standing on her. And if they don't like it I'd gladly hack them to bits.

So I guess that makes me a Fundamentalist too.

Go fuck yourself.

Which one of us?

Why is it that with all the convo about Islam and the Koran, the whole world does not know of the chapter that states Islam is for killing all those who dont convert to Islam ?

I would of thought we would ALL know the url to the info the proves Islam wants to kill everybody else. If the url existed.

BRAWL HALL IS WAY BETTER THAN THIS CESSPOOL OF NIGGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go back to f4$ noob.

I think religion is here to stay as long as humans exist.  I think there's an evolutionary element to things, such as suggested in this article: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/10/god-brai/ and I also think that there are ingrained elements in our language and culture that aren't likely to be stripped.

SATANISM ROCKS!

I also think that there are ingrained elements in our language and culture that aren't likely to be stripped.

The elements within both would be clashing, and the intra 'set' of elementsl.  Could the problems be sovled with social chemistry (?).   I say, Yes !  

Satin Rules!!!

No... 100% Cotton!

Penn Says: Agnostic vs. Atheist

Y'know, people ask em all the time what my religion is, and I ask what they mean... So they ask whom I worship and I tell them I worship my Goddess... and they ask me what my Goddess is and I tell them they're standing on her. And if they don't like it I'd gladly hack them to bits.

So I guess that makes me a Fundamentalist too.

Go fuck yourself.

Nobody cares about your religion because you guys haven't crashed any airplanes into skyscrapers yet.

BRAWL HALL IS WAY BETTER THAN THIS CESSPOOL OF NIGGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BAHAHAHA!

My counterpoint is the kill the infidel part of Islam isn't some radical interpretation of it, it's a core part of their religious dogma regardless of whether American Muslims actively practice that part of the religion or not, and it may only be a matter of time before they too are convinced that they're slackers at their religion if they don't follow what their religious books tell them to do.

Yoiu think folks should go after Jews & Christians, since a core part of the old testament is the sacrifice (without consumption) of live animals?  After all, it's just a matter of time before we start slaughtering fattened calves to appease God!

So long as Krsna's around to light a cooking fire after, who cares?

BRAWL HALL IS WAY BETTER THAN THIS CESSPOOL OF NIGGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BAHAHAHA!

I gotta hand it to Doormouse on that one, it was pretty good

oohh, sorry.  can't cook-then-eat your sacrificial animals.  it's an afront to God.

So long as Krsna's around to light a cooking fire after, who cares?

Yeah man.

oohh, sorry.  can't cook-then-eat your sacrificial animals.  it's an afront to God.

Not to our God.

NOT cooking and eating sacrificed animals is an affront to my Goddess. And a waste of a good meal.

oohh, sorry.  can't cook-then-eat your sacrificial animals.  it's an afront to God.

Not to our God.

But that's not the literal interpretation of the Bible!  YOU CAN'T EXIST.

NOT cooking and eating sacrificed animals is an affront to my Goddess. And a waste of a good meal.

So, for clarity's sake, what does your Goddess think about caning women that drink beer?

oohh, sorry.  can't cook-then-eat your sacrificial animals.  it's an afront to God.

Not to our God.

But that's not the literal interpretation of the Bible!  YOU CAN'T EXIST.

Ha ha! w3rd!

Man, wouldn't that be totally crazy if people in this modern day and age had actually decided to follow their ancient religious instructions?

Man, I'm glad that's never going to happen!

NOT cooking and eating sacrificed animals is an affront to my Goddess. And a waste of a good meal.

So, for clarity's sake, what does your Goddess think about caning women that drink beer?

My Goddess DEMANDS equality in the bedroom, the bar room and the battlefield. And my Goddess requires that I accept all people of all beliefs until they threaten me or my people DIRECTLY. If they do this she requires that I release their souls back into the maelstrom. Or give my life trying.