http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist_Bus_Campaign

I love it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist_Bus_Campaign

I love it!

I personally don't like it and I'm surprised you do.

I think it is an affront to define yourself by what you don't do and don't believe in.  Same reason all those years ago we talked about how dumb sXe kids were.

I don't partake in any religion but I would see no reason to advertise that fact.  I'm not religious, why would I advocate for non-religiousness?

I wouldn't consider myself atheist because I wouldn't rule out maybe someday attending a church just to work and help community charities and I've worked at two churches for pay as an administrator and graphic designer.  I personally don't believe in God but I can recognize the strong and positive impact that belief in God has in a lot of people's lives, young and old, it just doesn't do anything for me.  To publicly make a huge deal about atheism is to spit in the face of all of those people who enjoy religion without any tangible benefit to yourself.  Are you going to CONVERT them to Atheism?  That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard.  Who the fuck would waste their time evangelizing about non-participation?

If you don't believe in a god then you are definitionally an atheist.

You don't have to be a believer to participate in religious activities. I come from a strong religious background and I still attend all of the religious events that my family wants me to, but I'm certainly an atheist. I don't mind the religious activities. They're relatively tame rituals that serve to make me feel like I'm a person with a family history. Still, I think it's not a bad thing to be open about the fact that you don't believe the theology behind it. It saves you from embarrassingly personal discussions with true believers who try to develop themselves spiritually with your assistance (e.g. I don't discuss scripture in a group setting or attend the bible classes that family members have recommended I take because they really really turn me off intellectually.) An explanation that you're simply atheistic is at least honest, right?

Further, there are times when in-your-face atheism is extremely good and proper. Those times are during events like the Kansas evolution hearings. When religious zealots attempt to force their views into the field of science then they are acting in a manner that is contrary to all the values of examination, experimentation, introspection, review, and ultimately thought itself that have allowed us as a civilization (if not as a species) to progress as far as we have progressed. Religion is not interested in questioning the established facts. To the religious person the facts are laid out infallibly in a god-inspired tome of ultimate wisdom. This kind of approach is harmful to society when it is taught in classes as a valid alternative to thinking for oneself. In this situation it is very good to be a pushy atheist.

If it's just a matter of arguing between friends and neighbors then of course you are right that it is best to keep your atheism as much to yourself as your friends and neighbors are keeping their religions.

EDIT: Breaking up the long paragraph for Eitje's benefit

I'm agnostic.

To publicly make a huge deal about atheism is to spit in the face of all of those people who enjoy religion without any tangible benefit to yourself.

But that's the thing, what I love is how non-huge-of-a-deal the buses are. Here's what they say:




OK, so the first part says, "there's probably no god". (And I also love that they managed to avoid the capitalization issue!)

I don't see how that's terribly offensive. The word "probably" is well, probably there mainly so that they don't break any laws about false or unprovable advertising, but I really like the way it's phrased. It sums up exactly how I feel as an atheist - the existence of a god is very unlikely considering all the evidence we currently have, but who can say for sure? I'll never understand atheists who claim to KNOW that there is no god. To me that's as stupid as blindly believing in a god just because a bunch of other people do. In any case, if people of faith are as secure in their convictions as they claim to be, then how are they being hurt by the mere suggestion that they're wrong? I thought faith was supposed to set people at ease. If they're bothered by an ad on a bus, doesn't that really say more about how insecure they truly are?

Second part says, "now stop worrying and enjoy your life". This I'm not as keen on, simply because I feel it could be softened a little by using "so" instead of "now" and by using an exclamation mark at the end.

"so stop worrying and enjoy your life!"

...sounds friendlier and like less of an order to me than "now stop worrying and enjoy your life." Starting an imperative sentence with the word "now" implies that not only is this an order, but this is an order that needs to be followed immediately.

All that said, requesting that people stop worrying and enjoy their lives hardly seems very offensive.

Are you going to CONVERT them to Atheism?  That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard.  Who the fuck would waste their time evangelizing about non-participation?

You're missing a major point here, man: compassion.

Why do churches have signs with various messages for all to read? Why do churches and church-goers actively try to recruit others to join them? It's because they honestly believe that they can help these poor non-believers. I'm not talking about how the Catholic church owns half the planet, or anything like that. Sure, at that level it's all corrupt as fuck. I mean regular people, the kind of people we all know, the kind of people we're all related to. The vast majority of religious people are good folks who happen to believe in something I don't. And the same vast majority probably feels bad for me since I'm on my way to hell or whatever. The compassion they feel towards us non-believers can end up being super annoying, but that doesn't mean that their hearts aren't in the right place.

You know how there are many cases of people not being particularly religious, then suddenly discovering the faith that fits them, that makes it all work for them? Well think of just how many people are trapped the other way around. I know a fuckload of people who were brought up religious, went to church all their life, never questioned any of it, and were miserable. Then they discovered that they weren't alone, that it's OK to not believe, that there are others who think the same way and don't feel any shame about not believing. And the one word that I've heard from people like this over and over is "liberating". It's kinda like coming out of the closet, although I'm not sure that being an atheist isn't less socially acceptable than being gay.

I could start flyering for deism!  http://www.deism.com/deistleafletsmain.htm
I'll make my own ad campaign:

God exists. 
God just isn't here.
So stop praying and start doing.

Most people I know who go to chruch are worse than stage/sport/modeling parents. The intra social politics is amazing.

I could start flyering for deism!  http://www.deism.com/deistleafletsmain.htm
I'll make my own ad campaign:

God exists. 
God just isn't here.
So stop praying and continue slaughtering in his name.

I think it is an affront to define yourself by what you don't do and don't believe in.  Same reason all those years ago we talked about how dumb sXe kids were.

So how can you define yourself if you dont by what you do or dont believe in? Actions? Arent actions driven by personal beliefs? Job? How many of us have had different jobs in our time? Other character traits? Shit, I'd love to define myself as a Paladin in the AD&D sense, but I dont see that flying.

I'm not a believer in the paranormal or supernatural or metaphysical or whatever. I do believe myself to be an honest person. I have a number of other things I either believe or disbelieve that go towards the definition of the person I am.

Well said.

All of this is what I enjoy about being a heathen.

Pagans don't recruit. And if we do recruit you it's not for spiritual reasons. We recruit you because you have good taste in booze or your wife has a nice ass or really big tits. Or all three. Usually all three.

Pagans don't judge you on the depth of your faith. We don't judge you at all. Show up when you can and speak your mind.

We don't have rules or commandments to follow. Our basic rule is "Do your best to be nice and get a long with everyone else. And don't leave a mess in the kitchen for someone else to clean up". No guilt because there no sin. No atonement. No fire and brimstone and bullshit.

We don't collectively worship a specific deity other than the one we live upon so don't pollute the Goddess and for piss sakes recycle. Yes, there are other deities and you're free to worship them on your own time.

We sing. A lot. But never about the deities. Usually about killing people, burning villages, sacking Rome, drinking a lot and how our women are more badass than most men.

We stand around a file once a month and brag about our individual exploits and how thankful we are for the season, the harvest, our children, our ancestors and each other.

And we don't sit around and talk shit about other religions because they are allowed their freedom to worship. Though we do occasionally tell off color jokes about Christ...

So Pagans are basically Klingons. I like it.

Sexually, that would make Zoomie the bitch.

I'm agnostic.

DOUGLAS ADAMS: AMERICAN ATHEIST INTERVIEW

I could start flyering for deism!  http://www.deism.com/deistleafletsmain.htm
I'll make my own ad campaign:

God exists.  
God just isn't here.
So stop praying and continue slaughtering in his name to try to get his attention.

Also, pagan events are way more fun than anything at church. 

Well, except for hot girls in youth group.

Though I'd imagine pagan women are a lot more fun.

Tru, that was brilliant. I'd read it before, ages ago, but am now reminded of how amazing a thinker Douglas Adams was. Or at least how amazingly close his ideas are to mine.

As far as Paganism goes, I think you're getting the same out of it in a ritual sort of way, Zoom, as I am getting out of the humdrum traditions I go through with my family. The point isn't really about the theology at all, but it's about being with good friends and family and gaining a sense of unity. The only difference is you're more than likely fringed by dirty hippies when you're doing your rituals and I'm more than likely fringed by self-righteous wankers when I'm doing mine. It's the way God intended it, I'm sure.

Also, Douglas Adams is great. That was a sweet video Tru. Is that from Last Chance to See? Or is this uncollected material? I still haven't read The Meaning of Liff or its sequel. You've kicked off a good idea for a self-Xmas-present. Incidentally, like Si says, I find myself totally agreeing with him.

Back-patting self-congratulations reduced in size to minimize disgust:

Highlights from the Douglas Adams interview just posted:
2:22-2:44 - the word "belief" leads to trouble. I strongly agree.
3:06 and on - The burden of proof favors the simpler explanation. I strongly agree.
9:40 and on - Religion is fascinating. I strongly agree ...
and
0:57-1:16 - Agnosticism is a muddled copout that more suggests an unwillingness or incapacity to think about the issue than it does a measured engagement with matters. I've raised this (highly) controversial point several times before. Not on this version of the board, and maybe not even on the prior L-G. I'm pretty sure it did come up numerous times at my old home on the old J-S board, though. Anyway I've backed off the point since it meets with near universal disapproval, but I'm glad Adams raises it here.

Anyway my point is: See? My words may be rougher, but my ideas aren't all that ridiculous. Or at least they're only as ridiculous as those of a world-class science fiction author.

Is that from Last Chance to See?

It's not, it was an interview with an entity called "American Atheist". Maybe a magazine or something? No idea, but I'm glad to find out I'm not the only one who read that!

Agnosticism is a muddled copout that more suggests an unwillingness or incapacity to think about the issue than it does a measured engagement with matters.

click

In support of Krsna's war against Islam, I give you the 'Vande Mataram' fatwa, wherein Muslim clerics in India have deemed the national song (sort of the "God Bless America" of the nation) to be anti-Islamic because it opens with a line about bowing to the motherland (and, in Islam, men should worship no one but Allah himself).

However, counter to the concept that all Muslims are sheep to a violent and non-tolerant religious leadership, you'll find plenty of news articles in the link above where Indian and Other Muslims are saying that the fatwa is unnecessary.

So, aside from genocide and other truly horrific crimes, how do you feel about a religious organization that asks their followers to not sing specific songs?

Here's some other fatwas out there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatwas
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3906
http://thejakartaglobe.com/opinion/while-youre-at-it-more-fatwas-please/306198

Bowing seems to be a hot topic these days. Dick Cheney released a statement a few days ago lambasting Obama for bowing to the Emperor of Japan on his visit there. The idea is that Americans don't bow except to America and our fallen soldiers. This condemnation has interestingly received support on both sides of the political line.
I guess I feel about the same about the Indian fatwa against singing a song endorsing them bowing to the wrong thing as I do about the political noise regarding Americans bowing to the wrong thing. They're both totally silly.

Speaking of silliness and in support of Krsna's crusade, I present the Hamas-funded children's puppet show, Tomorrow's Pioneers. They're actually teaching the most bigoted intolerant crap imaginable to audiences of happy young children. And we wonder why the Middle East is so fucked up... I find this show crosses so far over the line, though, that it enters into the realm of the hilariously ridiculous. Anyway:

Islamic Killer Bee Replaced by Jew-Eating Jihad Bunny

Or at least they're only as ridiculous as those of a world-class science fiction author.

Adams was not a science fiction author. He was not a science anything author.

Well I know things are different in Australia. What's the PAL-B/G term for our NTSC "science fiction comedy"?

No ...  See my post above.

In support of Krsna's war against Islam, I give you the 'Vande Mataram' fatwa, wherein Muslim clerics in India have deemed the national song (sort of the "God Bless America" of the nation) to be anti-Islamic because it opens with a line about bowing to the motherland (and, in Islam, men should worship no one but Allah himself).

However, counter to the concept that all Muslims are sheep to a violent and non-tolerant religious leadership, you'll find plenty of news articles in the link above where Indian and Other Muslims are saying that the fatwa is unnecessary.

I can remember India's national anthem but if I had to do a solo I'd fail. If there were other people singing I'd be fine.
I've never even listened to Englands national anthem all the way through.

Anyway, Indians can be so patriotic. Bharat mata ki Jai!

So what part of India is your family from, Sakhi? Northern India I'm assuming. Is your family Brahmin? Any Kashmiri connections?

Yeah, northern. My mother's punjabi and my dad has relatives all over the place.
Brahmin, yes.
Kashmiri, not that I know of.

Do you speak Punjabi?

No, I should learn it really, seeing as my grandmother doesnt speak hindi.

Bowing seems to be a hot topic these days. Dick Cheney released a statement a few days ago lambasting Obama for bowing to the Emperor of Japan on his visit there. The idea is that Americans don't bow except to America and our fallen soldiers. This condemnation has interestingly received support on both sides of the political line.

Respect is respect. I was bowed to a lot in Japan, and accordingly, I bowed often when I was there. That doesnt show submission to some other nation, but it does show respect. Seems to me that some of these politicians of yours could do with a lesson or two in respect. Cheney especially.

Man, that rabbit video is disgusting.

How sick does a culture have to be to do something like that?