Fyre is entitled to her beliefs, I have no problem with that. I have no problem debating anything with anyone. I know full well that I'm not going to change anyones opinion, but at least I might understand their point of view better.

I think egalitarianism still has a long way to go in the US. Lets say for arguments sake that Obama wasnt actually born in the United States, but is a citizen, and has lived the majority of his life in the US. Would that make him any less American? I know it'd make him ineligible to be President, but the character of the man would still make him a loyal US citizen, I'd imagine. He has obvious talent, he clearly isnt stupid (GW wasnt stupid either, but that's another story), and I believe he would contribute positively to American society regardless of his employment.

Just because you might have had the good fortune to emerge from a womb in the right place doesnt necessarily mean that you deserve what you receive. A small twist of fate, perhaps a thrust at a different pace and a different sperm might have knocked up your mother, meaning you wouldnt exist at all. There are hugely talented people all over the planet who dont get even 1% of the opportunity that we take for granted, so when someone a bit different comes along, I always find it's worth the effort to at least give them a go. If they fuck up, well you'll know that it was a mistake, but if the dont, the results can be amazing. So far Obama doesnt appear to me to be fucking up. He's only 7 months into the job, let him get on with it, and then cast judgement by the results in 2012.

I usually find fringe ideas and cultures to be pretty entertaining most of the time.  I've spent a fair amount of time reading every variety of government conspiracy theory - moon landing hoax claims, freemasons running the world, FEMA building secret death camps in Minnesota, etc.       

I find birthers particularly aggravating because it isn't going away.  It's nonsense, but it won't die because a lot of popular right-wing talk show hosts aren't letting it die and for the reasons that Aaron already mentioned.  If it stayed in its obscure little corner of the internet where I could just laugh at the "experts" and "evidence," I wouldn't really care about it. 

Seriously.

The idea that someone who wasn't proven to be US-born could even be spoken about as a presidential candidate, let alone actually get a major party nomination, let alone actually win and get sworn in, in this day and age, is fucking ridiculous.

The Governator can do it!

Obama's up to his neck in sorting out the mess left on his lap by the previous 16 years of loose (no-existent?) fiscal policy.

What bothers me is that there isn't more political backlash against the lobbyists and "special interest" groups trying to block him in key areas. Those people operate in the dark grey corridors of your society, throw a fucking light on them instead of looking the other way.

This shit goes back further than that, back to Nixon...

Well, Alan Greenspan certainly deserves his fair share of the credit for shepherding us into the current mess (as many notable economists have pointed out and even he has been forced to partly admit).

Part of the problem in the US is that we allowed the fourth estate to be bought out and consolidated by the corporate interests that we should be attacking now.  So instead of getting tons of editorials and reports about pharmaceutical companies cutting a deal with the administration so that we won't import cheap drugs from Canada or the government won't leverage its bargaining power to force prices down, we largely get silence.

Even our public broadcasting has declined over the years because of frequent attacks from our oh-so-enlightened leaders.

On the one hand, Fyre is my friend. I overlook a lot of character flaws in my friends. OTOH I believe that the basis of venom in most of the birthers is simple racism. It's not even complex racism, it's all a show to externalize the fact that a portion of the populous don't want a darkie in the white house. And I hate that. I hate that as much as I hate it when people scream JEW HATER every time I talk about pulling all aid to Israel. But many of my friends are birthers.

So I emotionally disconnect myself from the subject.

Yeah, you have to, Zoomer.  

And you might be right about the "racism" ~ but not like you think.

There was an EXCELLENT opportunity (obviously) for us to truly take a Giant Step into the future.  However, instead of putting the best possible candidate forward, we were offered up some cliche of all of the "Black racial profile" slurs imaginable.

i wanted it to be good, too, folks.  i grew up all over the world and have never felt that anyone was less than me, for any reason other than THAT PERSON being ignorant, or a douche bag, or whatever.  i've never been a racist, and i honestly don't understand the whole issue.  (We ALL bleed red blood, which is interchangeable between races; we ALL cry normal saline tears when we're hurt; we ALL,  well, you get it.)

And here is where my big, fat racism theory comes into play ~ the first person to say the word, IS the word, 'cuz folks that aren't prejudiced, either For OR Against?  Don't really even think about it, as a main issue, and are more concerned with character, experience, intelligence, humor, etc.

imho, none of you regulars here in L-G are racists ~ i don't believe that a true racist wouldn't take the chance of making friends with someone, Sight Unseen, and would probably never trust in pix.

And Now, The Moment You've All Been Waiting For:

Because everyone keeps beating the racism drum, Obozo is being looked at to REPRESENT, and even knowing that he can't do that with any sense of decency, he just smiles (read that: laughs up his sleeve) and accepts the adoration as his just due.  HE IS LIVING A LIE, and instead of manning-up, and stepping aside for someone with a sterling reputation/character to be The One, he just plays the "Nigger-With-A-Chip-On-His-Shoulder" anytime his past shennigans are brought to light.  i hate folks who do that.

And if y'all have to hate ME over this, that's cool, too.  i've tried to educate myself, as best i could, about the facts, and Obozo is one of the worst kinds of politicians, having been involved in scandal after scandal, based upon scam after scam, and i don't understand how basically intelligent folks could just, out-of-hand, "Pooh-Pooh" his past,

but "they" (him, dem party, et. al.) have duped a lot of folks into believing that if they question even one thing about him, they must be racists, and THAT is an absolute betrayal, on a par with using the Bibles' teachings to "get over on" Christians.

(Bet you're wEndering where all my 'succinct-a-licious-ness' is right now, eh?   )  Yeah, right.

<~  STFU'ing

Fyre is entitled to her beliefs, I have no problem with that. I have no problem debating anything with anyone. I know full well that I'm not going to change anyones opinion, but at least I might understand their point of view better.

I think egalitarianism still has a long way to go in the US. Lets say for arguments sake that Obama wasnt actually born in the United States, but is a citizen, and has lived the majority of his life in the US. Would that make him any less American? I know it'd make him ineligible to be President, but the character of the man would still make him a loyal US citizen, I'd imagine. He has obvious talent, he clearly isnt stupid (GW wasnt stupid either, but that's another story), and I believe he would contribute positively to American society regardless of his employment.

Just because you might have had the good fortune to emerge from a womb in the right place doesnt necessarily mean that you deserve what you receive. A small twist of fate, perhaps a thrust at a different pace and a different sperm might have knocked up your mother, meaning you wouldnt exist at all. There are hugely talented people all over the planet who dont get even 1% of the opportunity that we take for granted, so when someone a bit different comes along, I always find it's worth the effort to at least give them a go. If they fuck up, well you'll know that it was a mistake, but if the dont, the results can be amazing. So far Obama doesnt appear to me to be fucking up. He's only 7 months into the job, let him get on with it, and then cast judgement by the results in 2012.

Obozo has given any true racists all the ammo they need to keep the front in motion...

Have you stopped to think what it will/would mean, when/if the truth comes out, and the bad shit IS the truth???  It makes me heartsick, folks.

How would you, personally, feel about our gov?  Our political party system?  Could you have any trust in the "News" that we all depend upon for the truth?  Oh!  And for you non-racists: Feeling any Need For Speed to get yourself moved into a "little better" 'hood?

btw, did you do the Google i suggested?  About the first 6 mos.?  It's not good, and even MSM is being forced to recognize it.

I usually find fringe ideas and cultures to be pretty entertaining most of the time.  I've spent a fair amount of time reading every variety of government conspiracy theory - moon landing hoax claims, freemasons running the world, FEMA building secret death camps in Minnesota, etc.        

I find birthers particularly aggravating because it isn't going away.  It's nonsense, but it won't die because a lot of popular right-wing talk show hosts aren't letting it die and for the reasons that Aaron already mentioned.  If it stayed in its obscure little corner of the internet where I could just laugh at the "experts" and "evidence," I wouldn't really care about it.  

Wow.  Guess you know how Emperors of old felt about that ridiculous Round Earth theory.

i'm glad that the truth won't change, regardless of how much we do or don't want it to; it's THERE, for all to see.
(Yes, that includes for me to see, also, ESPECIALLY if i'm being a dumbass)

***

Obama's up to his neck in sorting out the mess left on his lap by the previous 16 years of loose (no-existent?) fiscal policy.

What bothers me is that there isn't more political backlash against the lobbyists and "special interest" groups trying to block him in key areas. Those people operate in the dark grey corridors of your society, throw a fucking light on them instead of looking the other way.

Hey, you don't get it ~ "Those People" are the one's PAYING HIS RENT.  We aren't ALLOWED  to "throw a fucking light on them" ~ get real.

Moth?  Please delete...  sorry

Fyre is entitled to her beliefs, I have no problem with that. I have no problem debating anything with anyone. I know full well that I'm not going to change anyones opinion, but at least I might understand their point of view better.

I think egalitarianism still has a long way to go in the US. Lets say for arguments sake that Obama wasnt actually born in the United States, but is a citizen, and has lived the majority of his life in the US. Would that make him any less American? I know it'd make him ineligible to be President, but the character of the man would still make him a loyal US citizen, I'd imagine. He has obvious talent, he clearly isnt stupid (GW wasnt stupid either, but that's another story), and I believe he would contribute positively to American society regardless of his employment.

Just because you might have had the good fortune to emerge from a womb in the right place doesnt necessarily mean that you deserve what you receive. A small twist of fate, perhaps a thrust at a different pace and a different sperm might have knocked up your mother, meaning you wouldnt exist at all. There are hugely talented people all over the planet who dont get even 1% of the opportunity that we take for granted, so when someone a bit different comes along, I always find it's worth the effort to at least give them a go. If they fuck up, well you'll know that it was a mistake, but if the dont, the results can be amazing. So far Obama doesnt appear to me to be fucking up. He's only 7 months into the job, let him get on with it, and then cast judgement by the results in 2012.

I totally agree with this.


I was crushed when I found out about the stupid birth rule, I guess I'll have to settle with prime minister here instead.... *sigh*

You sort of missed my point...

Until it can be proven, there will always be unbelievers.

The thing is,

YOU CAN'T PROVE A NEGATIVE,

and until a TRUE positive is produced,

all of us can have whatever opinion we choose.

This shit goes back further than that, back to Nixon...

I would say It goes back at least to Wilson.
But Nixon's trumped up "drug war" was aimed at disenfranchising blacks predominantly.

This has to be a troll.

You sort of missed my point...

Until it can be proven, there will always be unbelievers.

The thing is,

YOU CAN'T PROVE A NEGATIVE,

and until a TRUE positive is produced,

all of us can have whatever opinion we choose.

Oh, I get your point.

It's just that it's completely wrong.

He has a birth certificate which has been confirmed to be valid by the state of Hawaii.  In the United States, that qualifies as prima facie evidence that he is a natural born citizen - good enough to get him a driver's license and passport.  The burden of proof is upon the side that would show that Obama is not, in fact, a citizen of the United States.  He is under no obligation to play games (even though he did release that scan, which silenced some critics like Jim Geraghty but led to the more wild claims that exist today).

You're free to believe whatever insane conspiracy theories you want, even if they require 40+ years of sustained conspiracy by dozens of parties on the chance that Barack Obama might someday have an opportunity to run for president.   Maybe you can have a love-in with the Holocaust deniers and lament the fact that no one will listen to your bullshit, even though you're clearly right.

BOOYAKA!

You sort of missed my point...

Until it can be proven, there will always be unbelievers.

The thing is,

YOU CAN'T PROVE A NEGATIVE,

and until a TRUE positive is produced,

all of us can have whatever opinion we choose.

Oh, I get your point.

It's just that it's completely wrong.

He has a birth certificate which has been confirmed to be valid by the state of Hawaii.  In the United States, that qualifies as prima facie evidence that he is a natural born citizen - good enough to get him a driver's license and passport.  The burden of proof is upon the side that would show that Obama is not, in fact, a citizen of the United States.  He is under no obligation to play games (even though he did release that scan, which silenced some critics like Jim Geraghty but led to the more wild claims that exist today).

You're free to believe whatever insane conspiracy theories you want, even if they require 40+ years of sustained conspiracy by dozens of parties on the chance that Barack Obama might someday have an opportunity to run for president.   Maybe you can have a love-in with the Holocaust deniers and lament the fact that no one will listen to your bullshit, even though you're clearly right.

Now, pal, you've overstepped yourself, and launched into a personal attack.  How dare you presume to know what i might or might not believe about the Holocaust??

And, no, Sherlock, it would NOT have taken 40 years of sustained conspiracy ~ all that was needed was a wanna-be with a closet full of secrets that would make him tame.

However, instead of putting the best possible candidate forward, we were offered up some cliche of all of the "Black racial profile" slurs imaginable.

No, Fyre. Obama is only a cliche of all racial slurs of any kind to the sort of people who sit around a 12 pack of Budweiser, with NASCAR on the TV, giggling over esoteric lines like "How many niggers can you fit in a hot tub?" And they live in all 50 states. And they, like birthers, are quickly becoming an insignificant minority. Just not fast enough. The fact that we are still discussing his race is just stupid.

We are all 99.9% genetically IDENTICAL. When the morons of the world can accept this racism will die.

Have y'all checked out the Gallup Polls, lately?

More and more folks are starting to rethink, asking some of those hard questions,

and they're actually wanting some answers, along with some actual investigative reporting regarding it all.

It's hard, i know, to read some of this drivel ~ it seems like folks are either (please forgive this) black or white in their presentations of the "sides."

But if you look at the basic facts, and reason your way through, there are just too many illogical inconsistenties to ignore.

And i can tell you for a fact that the reason i am so gone on the BC issue is because i see it as our last, best chance of ousting this clown, and starting over, with the two major political parties getting the recognizition (ridicule) they so richly deserve.  With BOTH of 'em sitting there, with egg on their faces, there's actually a chance to back an Independent REAL change.

i'd be thrilled to have an Independent Black woman in the office, but my vote would depend on qualifications, not pie-in-the-sky dreams of a better day, nor someone else telling me that "THIS," this ONE thing, is the reason everyone else doesn't agree with me.

If Everything can be blamed on One thing?  You'd better start wondering where you got that idea...

OK.

However, instead of putting the best possible candidate forward, we were offered up some cliche of all of the "Black racial profile" slurs imaginable.

No, Fyre. Obama is only a cliche of all racial slurs of any kind to the sort of people who sit around a 12 pack of Budweiser, with NASCAR on the TV, giggling over esoteric lines like "How many niggers can you fit in a hot tub?" And they live in all 50 states. And they, like birthers, are quickly becoming an insignificant minority. Just not fast enough. The fact that we are still discussing his race is just stupid.

We are all 99.9% genetically IDENTICAL. When the morons of the world can accept this racism will die.

Other than the brand of beer (Miller rather Blub-wizer), you have described one of my best friend's families, to a T.  My friend in Austin, from the bus company, Cynthia, who just happens to be black!  

And I'll bet you a lid of my brother's finest that she sits around with her family going "We had this white boy on the bus today and..."

And i can tell you for a fact that the reason i am so gone on the BC issue is because i see it as our last, best chance of ousting this clown, and starting over, with the two major political parties getting the recognizition (ridicule) they so richly deserve.  With BOTH of 'em sitting there, with egg on their faces, there's actually a chance to back an Independent REAL change.

...and then spent, you jump down into the alley and smoke a fatty. You throw rocks at the cats. Stone Cold Steve Austin gives you some beer.

"Wanna Wrestle, Stone Cold?"

"Yeeaahhhh."

Sarah19fca walks away, ignoring you.

"It's cool Stone Cold, she was a bitch anyway."

You get on Harleys and ride into the sunset.

I know that was sarcasm but I have to wonder if that's how Fyre started out...

And I'll bet you a lid of my brother's finest that she sits around with her family going "We had this white boy on the bus today and..."

Heck, we ALL used to tell our horror stories to each other!

Or are you saying that she would have singled out a white person?

'Cuz the last story she told me was about her son, and how she had scared him spitless, telling him that the cameras on the buses actually WORK, and that she saw what he did!  rofl

But, it really isn't like that.  Black, white, Mexican ~ there's bad actors in every group, but we don't look at someone and say, "Oh. A (black, if you're white or mexican / white, if you're black or mexican / mexican if black or white) dude, in the middle of the night.  i'd better be ready for trouble."  Cynthia is ALWAYS ready for trouble; i never am.  i didn't, and Cynthia doesn't, look at someone's color first, to decide how we feel about 'em.  If anything, we were more concerned with their AGES ~ we hauled a LOT of kids, to and from school and the malls, and teenagers can be a TRIP...

That, and the poor homeless folks that would ride around as long as we'd let 'em ~ Cynthia = ONE circle; Me = my shift ~ to get out of the weather.  (They would fall asleep, and we had to be careful that they not fall out of the seat ~ for REAL, folks! ~ and get hurt or anything.  

I'm saying that it is what it is. You don't see that kind of thing in most other countries. Being a proud black man and being a proud white man... Ask any African. They'll tell you it's more important to be a proud man. In Britain it's about class. You're born into a poor family, you go to shit schools, and you work on the docks. Or you're born into an affluent family, you go to Eaton, and you end up in Parliament. No matter what color your skin or the shape of your eyes. In the US ANYONE of ANY race or ANY level of poverty and you can still make it to the white house.

But we still dwell on these absolute minor differences.

It's stupid.

But this really sucked for those of us who just don't think that way, to begin with, you know?

We're being called racists, all over the webz, and it just isn't true ~ although i feel certain that there are some folks who ARE racists, and are Anti-Obama based upon that,

most of us just aren't.

And i've never heard anyone call him, what would do?  Ah.  An Uppity Nigger.  The gripes i have about him have nothing to do with his race, but if every time i try to address one of my concerns, i'm met with a wall of people who don't even know me calling me a racist, the whole discussion becomes me trying to prove a negative (can't be done), and the other person thinking i'm something/someone i'm not.

If i was a racist, would i be coming to the types of forums that allow everyone to join?  i don't think so.  It wouldn't make sense.  It isn't logical, and it does not compute.

If you want to call me a "racist" about something, call me a racist about handicapped people.  i DO treat them differently, i DO look at them differently.  Same with the elderly.  Same with children.  But that's the nursing thang.  It's an accepted "prejudice," if you will, because there DOES need to be a diff in how you handle situations within each group.  Oh, yeah, i also "group" folks, because of it.

What does that say about us, Thrash?  Are we basically horrible peeps 'cuz we do that?

And just the fact that it's OTHER non-racists that keep wrapping any meaningful dialouge around the race issue is absolutely mind-boggling to me.

Yes, especially since you have a black friend.